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Inspiration

Morning Pages to Millions:The Artist's Way Genesis

Elizabeth Gilbert
Elizabeth Gilbert
Dec 11, 2020
9 min read
Watch · 6

When your marriage falls apart at thirty and depression swallows your career whole, the last thing you need is another book about self-help. But Elizabeth Gilbert was desperate enough to try what a friend pressed into her hands: Julia Cameron's The Artist's Way. She did every exercise, filled every page. Then, somewhere in the accumulated debris of morning-pages handwriting, she saw it—a line that kept appearing, page after page. I wish I could speak Italian. She didn't know she'd wanted that. Her own unconscious mind had been hiding the truth from her. But there it was, in her own handwriting, insistent as a voice from another room. She took lessons. Within months, she was on a plane to Rome. That journey—the one she took to feed a hunger she didn't know she had—became Eat, Pray, Love. None of it would have happened without Julia Cameron's little book, written nearly three decades ago for no audience at all.

Read · 7 sections

A Book Written for Ten Friends

Cameron didn't envision millions of readers. She had ten friends in mind, all of them creatively blocked, all of them searching for a way through. "I thought I was writing a book for 10 friends," Cameron explained during the conversation. "I had friends who were blocked and I knew how to unblock them, and I thought well I'll just write some little essays and mail them to them." The work was intimate, pragmatic, born from genuine friendship and problem-solving.

When a publisher picked up the manuscript, they printed a modest run—just a small California book, they thought, not worldly ambition. But something unexpected happened. People kept buying it. One hundred thousand copies sold before the publisher even took it seriously. Now, over five million copies later, The Artist's Way has been translated into more than forty languages and has inspired everyone from Alicia Keys to Pete Townshend to Russell Brand. A phenomenon born from intimacy had become a movement.

For Elizabeth Gilbert, the discovery came at exactly the right moment of despair. "My intimacy and relationship disaster got so big that it swallowed my creativity," she said. "I indeed became blocked and stuck, not just in my creative life but just in my life in general. This was around the time that I turned 30 and I was going through a divorce and a depression and a friend gave me the artist's way and I did it loyally, I did it to the letter because I'm such a good rule follower."

The Morning Pages: Finding What You've Hidden

At the heart of The Artist's Way are three deceptively simple tools, and the first is the morning pages. They sound like meditation, but they're the opposite. Morning pages are three pages of longhand writing, first thing, about absolutely anything—no filter, no judgment, no literary ambition. Cameron describes them as taking a whisk broom to your inner life: poking into corners, dragging all the debris and rubble into the center of the room where you can finally see it and do something about it.

"They're not art," Cameron explained. "They're not supposed to be quote real writing, although sometimes real writers have a regrettable tendency to think gee I should be writing more seriously and here I am writing fragmented little thoughts." The point isn't eloquence. You write the trivial and the profound in the same breath: I forgot to call my sister back. I didn't like how Fred talked to me. The car has a funny knock in it. I didn't buy kitty litter. Everything gets equal attention. One hand moves across the page. The self-critic is silenced by sheer motion.

What morning pages actually do—and this is where the method becomes subtle—is train you to listen to yourself. As you keep writing, a desire surfaces. You ignore it. You keep writing. It surfaces again. You think, Maybe I could try that. You keep writing. It comes up a third time, and by now you're tired of hearing it. You surrender: All right, I'll give it a shot.

This is how the Italian lessons began for Elizabeth Gilbert. She did the book's final exercise: going back through pages to find patterns, to underline what kept appearing. "What kept showing up on mine was I wish I could speak Italian. I didn't know this about myself," she said. "I'd kept that hidden from myself but it was on almost every page and I was so surprised by that and I thought apparently I really want to speak Italian how am I going to do that and I started taking lessons and that started to pull me out of my depression and the next thing you know I was on a plane to Rome and that began Eat Pray Love."

The Artist's Date: Feeding Your Creative Hunger

The second tool is the artist's date—and this is where many people get confused. It's not a date with your spouse. It's a solo outing, a few hours alone, doing something that delights you with no productive purpose. You visit a botanical garden. You go to a flea market. You sit by water and watch light change. These dates, seemingly frivolous, are acts of devotion to your own creative hunger. They're proof that you matter enough to spend time on, that your joy is worth protecting.

Cameron calls morning pages and artist's dates "the bridge"—the structure people need to cross from their current, smaller life to their real, bigger life. "When people are ready to change sizes to go from being little me to be big me," she explained, "that's when the bridge becomes central." Most people don't know they're ready to grow. They don't know what size they're meant to become. The bridge shows them. It doesn't answer the question; it poses it, again and again, until you have no choice but to answer back.

When Perfectionism Becomes a Prison

Halfway through the conversation, Elizabeth Gilbert named something that many creative people carry silently: perfectionism as fear. It's not ambition or high standards. It's fear wearing a mask of excellence. Perfectionism tells you that if you can't do it perfectly, you shouldn't do it at all—which means you do nothing. It says that your work will never be good enough, so why bother starting?

Julia Cameron counters with a phrase that has become doctrine among writers and makers: done is better than good. Perfectionism kills momentum. It postpones the moment when you let your work leave your hands and become real in the world. A finished, imperfect thing has more power than an endlessly refined, never-finished thing. This is a spiritual teaching disguised as a productivity hack. It's about accepting your human scale, your limited time, your permission to be flawed and still matter.

Creativity as Spiritual Channel

What surprised many readers of The Artist's Way was that it is, at its core, a spiritual book—though not in the way most people expected. Cameron talks about God, a higher power, whatever you care to call it. But she's not prescribing doctrine. She's describing the experience of being a channel for something larger than yourself. Artists know this feeling: you sit down to write or paint or compose, and sometimes something moves through you that feels beyond your own invention. You're not inventing; you're receiving. You're a radio tuned to a frequency you didn't create.

This is where the mythology of the tortured artist gets dismantled. You don't have to suffer to make art. You don't have to be broken or addicted or depressed to access creativity. That story—the one that says the best art comes from pain—has kept a lot of people locked in suffering, believing it was necessary, even noble. Cameron and Gilbert both push back gently: creativity is something you can access in health and joy, not only in crisis. It's not that pain produces art; it's that blocked, unhappy people sometimes use art-making to unblock themselves. The art isn't the product of the suffering. The art is the healing.

The Inner Child's Rebellion

Another strand running through The Artist's Way is the recovery of the artist's inner child—the part of you that made things before anyone told you that you couldn't, or that your making wasn't good enough. Most people, by the time they're adults, have learned to silence this child. They've internalized the judgments of teachers, parents, peers. The inner child, then, becomes a source not just of creativity but of rebellion. It insists: I want to make something strange. I want to dance my own dance. I want to be weird and new.

This isn't indulgence. It's survival. In a culture that demands conformity, that requires we fit into existing boxes, the artist's inner child represents the refusal to shrink. It's the part that knows, before logic intervenes, what you actually love. It's worth listening to.

Where to Go from Here

If you've never written morning pages, the invitation is simple: get a notebook. Tomorrow morning, before coffee or email or news, write three pages by hand about anything. Don't edit. Don't aim for beauty or truth. Just move your hand across the page and let your mind follow. Notice what keeps appearing. Notice what you've been hiding from yourself.

Then go on an artist's date—something small and delightful, done alone, with no productive purpose. Give yourself permission to waste time on joy. These two practices won't solve your life or make you a famous writer. But they might make you braver. They might help you hear what you've been too busy or too afraid to listen for. And sometimes, that one thing—the whispered desire, the hidden hunger—is the whole point. It might, as it did for Elizabeth Gilbert, become your life's work.

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Transcript

[0:03] hello hello everyone good evening thank

[0:05] you very much

[0:06] for joining us i am delighted to see so

[0:09] many of you tuning in i can see the

[0:11] numbers whizzing up on the bottom of

[0:12] my screen and choosing to spend your

[0:15] evening with us

[0:16] or i should probably say afternoon or

[0:17] morning depending on whereabouts in the

[0:19] world

[0:20] you're tuning in from and i have no

[0:21] doubt given our subject matter and our

[0:23] two very exciting guests this evening

[0:25] that there will be people tuning in

[0:27] from far and wide so i'm thrilled to

[0:29] welcome all of you on behalf of the how

[0:31] to academy

[0:32] and i normally say at this point and

[0:34] that i regret that we can't all be in

[0:36] the same room

[0:36] and while i do i think given the amount

[0:38] signing in we probably wouldn't fit

[0:40] anyway so i am

[0:41] very glad that we can all come together

[0:44] thanks to the

[0:45] marvels of zoom um and discuss this

[0:48] in my hands extraordinary book and and i

[0:51] say book but of course it's so much more

[0:53] than that it's a phenomenon

[0:55] since its original publication nearly

[0:57] three decades ago now

[0:58] it's gone on to start a movement to

[1:00] inspire millions

[1:02] uh it's been published in i think over

[1:04] 40 languages it sold over five million

[1:06] copies to date i'm sure while i'm

[1:07] speaking

[1:08] the number will be rising to six million

[1:10] and so

[1:11] as i say the artist's way a spiritual

[1:13] path to higher creativity which is of

[1:15] course the inspiration

[1:17] for our discussion this evening uh in

[1:19] its new updated form

[1:21] has transformed the lives of so many

[1:22] it's helped people to discover their

[1:24] creativity and their passions you'll

[1:26] want to if you haven't already

[1:28] thrusted into the hands of absolutely

[1:30] everybody that you know

[1:32] and in its advocacy also of self-care

[1:35] and

[1:35] nourishment and encouraging you to

[1:37] really live life it's

[1:38] more than a guide to our statistic

[1:40] success i think it's a guide to really

[1:42] how to live a fulfilling life overall

[1:44] but it has been

[1:45] uh hailed by many of the world's most

[1:47] celebrated artists from

[1:49] booker prize winners musicians like

[1:51] alicia keys and

[1:53] the who's pete townsend reese

[1:55] witherspoon russell brand the list goes

[1:57] on

[1:57] um who all cite a big debt of gratitude

[2:00] to its author

[2:01] so it feels really almost like a treat

[2:04] too far to be joined this evening

[2:06] not only by the author herself who's

[2:08] also a poet a songwriter filmmaker

[2:11] playwright again the list goes on as

[2:13] well as a best-selling author

[2:14] she's been dubbed the high priestess or

[2:16] the godmother of creativity

[2:18] hailed as the queen of change by the new

[2:21] york times um

[2:22] but we also have with us one of those

[2:24] great detailers

[2:26] who herself is of course an icon and an

[2:28] inspiration to millions

[2:29] and who says that without this

[2:31] creativity bible

[2:32] she would never have written her seminal

[2:34] book eat pray love

[2:36] so julia cameron and elizabeth gilbert

[2:39] we feel very blessed to have you both

[2:40] here thank you so much

[2:42] for joining us um so i'm gonna start off

[2:46] i'm sure many of you will have read it

[2:48] and i'm sure many of you might know its

[2:50] history but

[2:51] julia i'd like to roll two questions

[2:53] into one to you at the beginning to say

[2:55] how did the artist's way first come to

[2:58] be

[2:59] what your original tension was when it

[3:01] was published as i say nearly a quarter

[3:02] of a century ago

[3:03] and did you expect this extraordinary

[3:05] popularity i've heard you say

[3:07] that you feel dazed overwhelmed and

[3:09] confused by the velocity of people

[3:11] and events so did you expect it would

[3:13] speak to millions in this way

[3:17] no i thought i was writing a book for 10

[3:21] friends i i had friends who were blocked

[3:24] and i knew how to unblock

[3:26] uh and i thought well i'll just write

[3:30] some little essays and mail them to them

[3:33] so it was initially intended as

[3:36] a very intimate little book and when it

[3:40] was first published

[3:42] they published an intimate little number

[3:44] of books

[3:45] because they thought well it's just a

[3:49] little california book

[3:51] and it's not going to catch on worldwide

[3:55] certainly

[3:56] so we'll just publish a few so they

[3:59] published a few

[4:00] uh and then there was a demand for more

[4:03] uh

[4:04] and it wasn't until we had sold a

[4:06] hundred thousand books

[4:08] that they said oh maybe we should take

[4:11] this book a little bit

[4:13] seriously so

[4:16] go ahead and to liz then i mean

[4:19] how did you first where come across it

[4:22] and

[4:22] i mean i know you say it's sort of

[4:24] changed your life

[4:26] i came across that i remember seeing it

[4:29] for years um

[4:30] it's it's the kind of book that's on the

[4:32] bookshelves of

[4:33] every person who i would be interested

[4:35] in right like it's it's one of those

[4:37] books but i

[4:38] didn't think that i ever needed it

[4:39] because i my creativity was the one part

[4:41] of my life that i felt like did flow

[4:44] in a natural way and it was other parts

[4:47] of my life that were a disaster

[4:49] namely intimacy and relationships but my

[4:51] intimacy and relationship

[4:53] disaster got so big that it swallowed my

[4:56] creativity

[4:57] and um and i indeed became blocked and

[4:59] stuck um not just in my creative life

[5:01] but just in my life

[5:02] in general and this was um around the

[5:04] time that i turned 30 and i was going

[5:06] through a divorce and

[5:07] a depression and a friend gave me

[5:11] the artist's way and i and i i did it

[5:15] i did it loyally i did it to the letter

[5:18] because i'm such a good rule follower

[5:20] that's one thing that i

[5:21] love about the book is like tell me what

[5:23] you know when you're desperate you just

[5:24] want somebody to tell you what to do

[5:26] so tell me what to do julia and i'll do

[5:28] it and i did every single thing that she

[5:30] suggested and all the exercises and the

[5:32] morning pages and the artist dates and

[5:34] and at the end of the book um there's a

[5:36] point julia where you you suggest that

[5:37] we go back

[5:38] and we look over and we see what keeps

[5:40] showing up

[5:41] page after page after page and underline

[5:43] the things that keep showing up and what

[5:45] kept showing up on mine

[5:47] was i wish i could speak italian i

[5:50] didn't know this about myself

[5:52] i didn't know this piece of information

[5:54] about myself i'd kept that hidden from

[5:56] myself but it was on almost every page

[5:57] and

[5:58] i was so surprised by that and i thought

[6:00] apparently i really want to speak

[6:02] italian how am i going to do that

[6:03] and um and i started taking lessons that

[6:06] started to pull me out of my depression

[6:07] and the next thing you know i was on a

[6:08] plane to rome and that began you pray

[6:10] love

[6:11] so i can truly say that um that without

[6:14] your book julia eat pray love would have

[6:15] never

[6:15] existed i never would have known what i

[6:17] needed or wanted

[6:20] yes i i think the book gives us many

[6:23] little

[6:23] hints about what it is we truly love and

[6:27] we're truly interested in

[6:29] julia perhaps you could explain to

[6:31] people who don't know just very quickly

[6:33] those morning pages and artist dates

[6:35] what they what they are um they

[6:37] obviously helped liz so much

[6:39] and people perhaps don't know exactly

[6:41] what they are and what their purpose is

[6:44] okay so we'll start with morning pages

[6:48] morning pages are three pages

[6:51] of long hand warning writing about

[6:54] absolutely anything that crosses your

[6:56] mind

[6:57] it's like you take a little whisk room

[7:00] and you poke it into the corners of your

[7:02] life

[7:03] and you bring all the debris and rubble

[7:05] into the center of the room

[7:06] where you can do something about it and

[7:10] pages are top of the head

[7:14] they're not art they're not supposed to

[7:17] be

[7:17] quote real writing although i think

[7:20] sometimes in liz could back me up on

[7:22] this

[7:23] sometimes real writers have a

[7:25] regrettable tendency to think

[7:27] gee i should be writing more seriously

[7:30] and here i am writing

[7:32] fragmented little thoughts so

[7:35] it's as if you have add you write i

[7:38] forgot to call my sister back i didn't

[7:41] like how fred talked to me the car has a

[7:43] funny knock in it i didn't buy kitty

[7:45] litter

[7:46] everything from the the petty to the

[7:48] profound

[7:50] and you simply keep your hand moving

[7:52] across the page and what they do

[7:56] is that they train you to expand

[7:59] uh you'll you'll be riding along and

[8:02] you'll hear i wish i could speak italian

[8:05] uh

[8:06] or i wish i could write music

[8:10] and you'll think i can't do that and

[8:13] then you'll write along and then it'll

[8:14] come up again

[8:16] and you'll think oh

[8:20] maybe i could try that and then they

[8:22] come up again

[8:24] and by now you're sick of them and

[8:27] you say oh for christ's sake all right

[8:30] i'll give it a shot

[8:32] and so they've trained you to expand

[8:35] they make you larger than your current

[8:37] size

[8:38] um i sometimes call the pages the bridge

[8:43] and again this is something that liz

[8:45] could talk more about

[8:47] on that um when people are ready to

[8:51] change

[8:52] sizes to go from being little me to be

[8:56] big me that's when they encountered the

[8:59] bridge

[9:00] uh and um yeah

[9:04] yeah go ahead i wonder if liz wanted to

[9:06] sort of pick up on that

[9:08] you know the bridge does that do you

[9:10] feel

[9:11] do you understand the relevance of that

[9:14] i do

[9:14] and and it's so surprising what ends up

[9:17] being the bridge

[9:18] um you know that there's an adage i love

[9:21] that the

[9:22] the same mind that created the problem

[9:24] cannot solve the problem

[9:26] right so this this evolution of spirit

[9:28] that i think julia's talking about where

[9:30] you have to

[9:31] you have to change it's a very tricky

[9:35] sort of spiritual mystical thing because

[9:37] you have to

[9:38] draw this information out of a mind that

[9:41] is incapable of change

[9:42] it's why you're stuck so when you're at

[9:45] your very most stuck you've got to find

[9:47] that bridge somehow

[9:48] um and i think why the morning pages are

[9:51] so brilliant

[9:52] precisely because they are sort of

[9:54] unconscious i've heard you say julia

[9:56] that

[9:56] that if you you know part of the morning

[9:58] pages is you grab that journal

[10:00] right when you wake up and and you you

[10:03] know you haven't had time

[10:04] yet to become yourself um you know i

[10:07] think

[10:08] you said once in an interview julia that

[10:09] it takes you 45 minutes

[10:11] um to become who you are when you wake

[10:13] up in the morning

[10:14] so you're trying to catch that moment

[10:15] before you've solidified and cemented

[10:18] and

[10:18] the gatekeeper is not awake yet right

[10:20] the gatekeeper's not awake yet and so

[10:22] everything can kind of

[10:23] slip in and and for me it really was

[10:26] italian that was the bridge

[10:28] um i i could have never known that um i

[10:31] just had to trust that

[10:32] something was telling me that i wanted

[10:34] to do that and it ended up being the

[10:35] bridge because

[10:37] i had no memories or words in english

[10:40] that were not associated with depression

[10:42] but italian was a whole new language

[10:44] around which there was no depression

[10:46] no memories and no sorrow so it

[10:48] literally was a bridge to a new part of

[10:50] my mind

[10:51] um and and i could not have possibly

[10:54] known that if i hadn't done those

[10:55] morning pages

[10:56] week after week after week and just seen

[10:58] that little piece of information

[10:59] slipping in from

[11:00] the fairies and letting letting you know

[11:03] what the next clue was on your journey

[11:06] you you talk about fairies and you said

[11:08] spirituality a few times you both have

[11:10] and i know that in the book um julia you

[11:13] say artists through the centuries have

[11:15] spoken of inspiration confiding

[11:17] that god spoke to them or angels did and

[11:19] these days

[11:20] that seldom mentioned spirituality is

[11:23] mostly central to all of this

[11:25] not necessarily a god a god that's

[11:27] everyone can get you know put their own

[11:30] god in there and that hasn't seemed to

[11:32] put people off and

[11:33] do you think that's because you've said

[11:35] be open-minded

[11:36] substitute god for direction or flow

[11:41] yes i think right at the very beginning

[11:43] of the book i say

[11:44] okay we're going to talk about god

[11:48] uh and i want you to be careful uh

[11:51] to not let semantics be a block for you

[11:55] if you are an atheist and you do the

[11:58] tools

[11:58] you will still have a spiritual

[12:00] awakening although you may not call it

[12:03] a spiritual awakening and i recently had

[12:07] a man say to me julia i've been doing

[12:11] morning pages for 22 years

[12:14] i'm an atheist and i said oh i'm a

[12:16] believer

[12:18] and we sort of stared at each other and

[12:21] he said i've written 13 movies

[12:25] and i said to him well you don't believe

[12:28] in god but clearly god believes in you

[12:32] and so i i think

[12:36] calling it flow the muse the universe

[12:39] the higher power whatever you care to

[12:42] call it

[12:44] it doesn't really seem to care what you

[12:47] name it

[12:49] provided you realize that when you do

[12:52] morning pages

[12:53] you contact a larger benevolent

[12:57] something that is friendly to you and

[13:00] your goals

[13:03] and for a lot of us this is a

[13:05] breakthrough

[13:06] we have had a god concept that was very

[13:09] negative and authoritarian

[13:12] and we thought god didn't want us to get

[13:15] too uppity

[13:17] and here all of a sudden we say oh

[13:20] actually god is on your side

[13:25] so um that's my scoop

[13:29] your scoop wonderful liz that scoop what

[13:32] does it look like for you i know you

[13:33] know big magic is very much about that

[13:36] unnamed thing but perhaps you could tell

[13:37] us what that spirituality

[13:39] feels like for you and i know you

[13:41] wouldn't be able to define it because

[13:43] as julia says it's not about semantics

[13:46] right if i if i knew what god

[13:47] was it wouldn't be god uh

[13:51] it's not but i um i like

[13:54] personally to work with the difference

[13:56] in definition whenever i talk about god

[13:58] um and i know that british people

[14:00] especially get start to get hives and

[14:02] anxiety so i always

[14:03] want to say um look don't don't panic

[14:07] like don't panic the god that you don't

[14:10] believe in

[14:11] i also don't believe in um so whatever

[14:14] it is that was put into your head that

[14:15] you thought this is insane and

[14:16] ridiculous and

[14:17] and brutal i agree um and and i think

[14:20] what we're talking about here's the

[14:22] difference between religion and

[14:23] spirituality

[14:24] and my favorite definition to help us

[14:26] kind of clear the way on that is that

[14:28] religion is for people who are afraid of

[14:30] going to hell

[14:31] and spirituality is for people who have

[14:33] already been there

[14:34] and needed to get out and what got them

[14:38] out was reaching for something higher

[14:40] um reaching for something more eternal

[14:42] more expansive more loving more

[14:44] connective so even higher mind is a

[14:46] lovely way to put it

[14:47] um i often have deep passionate

[14:50] beautiful conversations on the page

[14:52] between me and this

[14:53] thing this source and sometimes i say to

[14:56] it

[14:57] am i just imagining you and and it says

[15:00] it doesn't matter

[15:01] if you're just imagining me then thank

[15:03] you imagination for providing me with

[15:05] this beautiful

[15:06] um conversation that we're engaged in

[15:09] you know part of the human dilemma is

[15:10] this this constant need to empirically

[15:12] know

[15:12] why and that's something that the more i

[15:14] let go of that the more i can be in the

[15:16] flow

[15:17] and just take instructions and and mind

[15:19] my own business and do what i'm told

[15:22] i i think that what comes comes across

[15:25] from this is this

[15:26] hugely important thing all the way

[15:28] through and the artist's way and the

[15:30] journey is about being

[15:32] playful and treating your creativity

[15:34] like an inner child and julia you write

[15:36] all the way through let yourself

[15:38] play creativity is not sensible it's

[15:41] never been sensible why should it be why

[15:43] should you be

[15:44] um i i love this fact you know the the

[15:47] artist you

[15:47] have to nurture it like an inner child

[15:49] and julia perhaps you could tell us

[15:50] first off

[15:51] about that why that's so important that

[15:53] that child and then liz i'd love to know

[15:55] how that's

[15:56] uh affected which i think it has you

[15:58] sort of embodied that going forward in

[16:00] all your journeys and adventures and

[16:02] experiences that you've chosen to kind

[16:04] of lap up

[16:06] so i think i want to say that serious

[16:10] art

[16:10] is born from serious play i

[16:13] and that when i go out to teach i if i

[16:16] say

[16:17] i have a tool it's a nightmare

[16:20] you'll have to wake up 45 minutes early

[16:23] you'll have to be vulnerable uh you'll

[16:26] have to

[16:27] really work at getting the three pages

[16:30] done

[16:31] they say oh work we get it we we're

[16:34] ready to work on our creativity

[16:36] and then if i say well i'd like you to

[16:39] do something else

[16:41] once a week i'd like you to take

[16:43] yourself on a solo

[16:46] festive enchanting expedition

[16:50] to do something that intrigues or

[16:52] interests you

[16:54] in other words i want you to play and

[16:56] people are

[16:57] immediately offended arms get crossed

[17:01] and they they play i don't see

[17:04] what play has to do with creativity and

[17:07] i try to explain to them

[17:09] that when we make a piece of art any

[17:12] kind of art

[17:13] we're drawing on an inner well which is

[17:16] filled with images

[17:18] and if we are working flat out we're

[17:22] fishing from the well

[17:23] and sometimes we over fish the well

[17:27] and when we reach for an image there's

[17:30] nothing to catch so when we go out on an

[17:34] artist's date once a week

[17:36] what we're doing is we're replenishing

[17:39] our creative well

[17:41] and my favorite artist date is a pet

[17:44] store in evanston illinois

[17:46] where they have a bunny named george

[17:50] and you're allowed to pet george

[17:53] and there's something wonderful about

[17:56] just petting this tiny little creature

[17:59] and uh it gives you a sense of frivolity

[18:04] uh and frivolity is where you get your

[18:08] best ideas

[18:10] i mean liz i would i would love to hear

[18:13] your your response to that i mean

[18:15] first of all do you still do do you do

[18:18] your artist dates do you still do your

[18:20] own states and

[18:21] make kind of play dates with yourself

[18:22] what does that look like for you

[18:25] i do and um and i call them artist dates

[18:28] um

[18:28] i i know exactly what it is that i'm

[18:30] doing i will always call them artist

[18:32] dates um

[18:33] trademark julia cameron um

[18:36] you know i have a um i have a friend a

[18:38] very wise teacher and friend who always

[18:40] says to me do something different until

[18:42] something better comes along

[18:44] and and for me an artist date is doing

[18:47] something different

[18:48] what i feel like where i can get trapped

[18:50] and where many people can get trapped

[18:52] is in something that we call well that i

[18:55] call commuter mind

[18:56] and commuter mind is um born of true

[19:00] despair

[19:01] and in my world the definition of

[19:02] despair is the belief that tomorrow is

[19:04] going to be exactly the same as today

[19:06] now there's no no sign ever in nature

[19:09] that tomorrow

[19:10] is going to be exactly the same as today

[19:12] which is nothing in nature

[19:13] is the same tomorrow as it is today um

[19:16] but

[19:17] we fall into that belief and then we get

[19:19] frozen um

[19:20] and it's the same it's the same commute

[19:22] every morning it's the same breakfast

[19:24] sandwich every morning it's the same

[19:25] office meeting every morning it's the

[19:27] same

[19:27] parking spot every morning and you get

[19:30] it's it's a fault it's very unnatural

[19:32] because that's not actually how nature

[19:33] flows

[19:34] um but it's this sort of industrial

[19:36] human construct that we've placed around

[19:38] time and around nature

[19:39] so for me i think the artist date is a

[19:42] very rebellious disruption

[19:44] of commuter mind and and i

[19:47] also like to not plan it too much

[19:50] because

[19:51] i know that my ego will co-opt it and

[19:53] turn it into something try to

[19:55] try to turn it into some multi-tasking

[19:57] thing and so i mean i had one the other

[19:59] day

[19:59] um in the spring one of the first warm

[20:00] days of spring during covid where i

[20:02] i woke up very early and i have a very

[20:05] serious meditation practice

[20:07] um that takes up a couple hours in

[20:09] creativity practice all my practices

[20:10] take up a few hours every morning and

[20:12] they're good but they're rigid

[20:14] um you know i can i can make anything

[20:16] into rigidity

[20:17] and i just woke up one morning and i

[20:18] thought it's time for an artist date i'm

[20:20] going to the ocean

[20:21] and i jumped in the car and started

[20:22] driving with no sense of which ocean

[20:25] where

[20:26] which beach um and i kept saying as i

[20:29] was driving i wonder where i'm going and

[20:30] i wonder why i'm doing this

[20:33] but that was just my mind demanding

[20:35] again to know why why why

[20:37] why why and my creativity was saying i

[20:39] don't know

[20:40] we'll see when we get there let's go

[20:41] find out um and

[20:43] you know took an exit for a sign that

[20:45] said beaches an hour from my house and

[20:47] um

[20:47] spent the entire day at the beach

[20:48] wandering around for no reason

[20:51] um other than to disrupt the software

[20:54] pattern

[20:55] that says um you know if we're not

[20:57] careful we just

[20:58] run into the world of we're just here to

[20:59] pay bills and die and i simply do not

[21:02] believe that we're just here to pay

[21:04] bills and die

[21:06] and you've got to actively disrupt that

[21:08] because you're also living in a culture

[21:09] if you live in western civilization that

[21:11] teaches you that you're just here to pay

[21:12] bills and die

[21:13] um and that is that is also unnatural

[21:16] and

[21:16] untrue can i ask i think probably

[21:20] what comes to lots of people's minds

[21:21] when you hit when you hear you talking

[21:22] about adventures and dates is

[21:24] now um the world is a different place it

[21:27] has been for

[21:27] quite a few months and some people say

[21:30] that

[21:31] isolation is a sort of an artist's

[21:33] friend and you know that you go on to

[21:35] in in confinement you make your best

[21:37] work but julia i know you talk about

[21:39] this as being art and creativity as

[21:41] being a collective experience it's

[21:43] tribal

[21:44] and much of it is as you've just been

[21:45] saying about going out and experiencing

[21:47] and filling up your

[21:48] well so i just wonder from both of you

[21:50] from julia how

[21:52] this translates to now and to the time

[21:54] we're going through and then you know

[21:56] liz i'm wondering

[21:57] how this has affected your creativity

[22:00] personally the last few months

[22:03] well i want to say that colbit has been

[22:06] good for creativity for me i have

[22:10] finished uh written a play and i have

[22:14] finished on page 190 of a handwritten

[22:19] book

[22:20] and what i found was

[22:24] artist dates were supposed to be outside

[22:26] the house and now suddenly we're saying

[22:28] oh don't go out so what can you do

[22:32] in your house that's fun and it turns

[22:35] out that there's all sorts of things you

[22:37] can do

[22:39] you can take a bubble bath you can make

[22:42] a pot of homemade soup

[22:44] you can bake a pie you can listen to a

[22:47] piece of music that you never listen to

[22:50] you can put on some drum music and dance

[22:53] for five minutes

[22:54] uh and so

[22:58] covet is actually a challenge

[23:02] to find things in your personal

[23:04] environment

[23:06] that are festive and i think what

[23:09] happens

[23:10] is that we suddenly start realizing

[23:14] oh i i'm having commuter mind

[23:17] in my own house i need to shake it up

[23:21] and we we do shake it up and i want to

[23:24] say

[23:25] uh that when i first started doing

[23:28] morning pages

[23:30] i was told i needed to believe in

[23:32] something

[23:33] uh and i said you don't understand 16

[23:36] years of catholic education

[23:38] greased slide to agnosticism

[23:42] and they said well you must believe in

[23:44] something

[23:45] and i thought about it and i thought i

[23:48] believe in a line from dylan thomas

[23:51] the force that through the green fuse

[23:53] drives the flower

[23:55] that creative energy and particularly

[24:00] during this covet lockdown period

[24:03] we need to tap into that creative energy

[24:07] and sort of let it flow through us

[24:12] liz how how have you found the the last

[24:14] you know few months have

[24:16] affected your creativity whether for

[24:17] good or bad or whether you have tips for

[24:20] sort of dealing with it

[24:21] with the new age well there's there's

[24:24] one piece of it that i found kind of

[24:26] funny and i say this

[24:28] i'm loved with loving teasing

[24:31] but for years and years and years and

[24:32] years as i have traveled around i've

[24:34] heard people say

[24:35] so much that they wish they could do

[24:37] what i did um

[24:39] which is stop the world and go on a

[24:41] spiritual journey

[24:43] and that they wish they could go to an

[24:45] ashram in india

[24:46] and meditate all day and i'm like well

[24:52] what the world looks like right now my

[24:55] friends

[24:55] is not that different from what it's

[24:57] like to go to india to an ashram and

[24:59] meditate all day you essentially sit in

[25:01] a room

[25:02] with nothing happening and just sit in

[25:05] it like that's what i did in india for

[25:07] four and a half months um

[25:08] in that ashram was to get up before dawn

[25:10] every day and hours

[25:11] and hours and hours a day of doing

[25:13] absolutely nothing

[25:15] and the emotions that i see stirred up

[25:18] in people during the cobit lockdown

[25:20] are exactly the same as what i went

[25:22] through in those first months of

[25:23] meditation

[25:24] rage boredom anger frustration desire

[25:29] dreaming of food dreaming of sex

[25:31] dreaming up like anything to get out of

[25:33] here you know

[25:34] um and and so i i kind of watch it and i

[25:37] smile because i think i know where you

[25:38] guys are

[25:39] at i i i in the beginning of my

[25:42] lockdown and my meditative practice i

[25:45] also experienced that

[25:46] stay with it there's something in us um

[25:49] [Music]

[25:52] i want to live my life in harmony with

[25:54] what nature is creating

[25:56] and what nature seems to be suggesting

[25:58] to us right now

[25:59] is stop um and so instead of me giving

[26:03] people suggestions about

[26:05] how to push against that and how to fill

[26:08] up your day with activity and how to

[26:10] find

[26:10] ways to consume even though all the

[26:11] stores are closed and how to find ways

[26:13] to socialize even though you can't see

[26:14] people

[26:15] you know i see this resistance as very

[26:17] human that's going

[26:18] exactly against what every single

[26:20] apparent signal in the universe is

[26:22] saying right now in the natural world is

[26:23] saying

[26:24] hey you guys stop

[26:28] stop that's enough now go to your room

[26:31] and think about what you've done

[26:34] and um you know i hear a lot of people

[26:36] saying that

[26:38] cobot is so hard because humans are a

[26:39] social animal

[26:41] and that's true we we undoubtedly are

[26:43] but that's not the only thing we are

[26:44] we're also a spiritual animal

[26:46] and every spiritual tradition in the

[26:48] entire history of the world

[26:49] suggests that at some point in your life

[26:51] it would be to your benefit to stop

[26:53] and to get very still so for me what my

[26:56] creativity has looked like

[26:57] over the last um six months has not been

[27:00] about

[27:01] making work i actually had just finished

[27:03] a book in january so i was kind of like

[27:04] my well was empty as julia would say

[27:07] um but has been about deepening my

[27:10] meditation

[27:11] deepening my silence deepening my

[27:13] solitude deepening my isolation

[27:15] playing with that playing with the

[27:18] reality of the world that's saying you

[27:19] can't do anything else right now

[27:21] and i can either fight that and get very

[27:23] sick and stressed and ill

[27:25] and self-pitying or i can be

[27:28] a really a human who dances with fate

[27:30] and i can say

[27:31] okay cool i guess this is my i'm doing

[27:33] my meditation retreat

[27:36] um so for me it's just been deepening

[27:38] spiritual practices

[27:39] um and it's been wonderful and i've i've

[27:41] never in my life spent as much time

[27:43] alone as i've spent in the last six

[27:44] months and it's been

[27:46] um deeply healing and and and really

[27:50] nourishing i feel very full and fed just

[27:53] with my own company at the moment

[27:55] and i mean that julia i'm sure this

[27:58] reminds me of the

[27:59] part in your book where you you say you

[28:02] advocate

[28:02] um reading deprivation and

[28:05] i mean i read that going okay so you

[28:08] call reading and books can be a bit of a

[28:10] pollutant because they're filling your

[28:12] head full of thoughts

[28:13] now we live in a world where that's the

[28:16] last of our books are the last of our

[28:18] problems we have a certain thing

[28:20] it looks like that that just fills our

[28:22] thoughts

[28:23] every day and i'm wondering how you know

[28:25] how important it is just to switch

[28:27] all of that off and how we can do that

[28:29] now you know with

[28:30] with phones we're bombarded now by what

[28:33] you would call pollutants and as i say

[28:35] books feel like a

[28:36] a peaceful luxury in comparison

[28:41] so your question is do we need to switch

[28:44] it all off as liz says she has done for

[28:46] that you know for creativity to flow and

[28:48] flourish would you advocate we switch it

[28:50] all off

[28:50] from time to time

[28:54] i i think what we're going through right

[28:56] now is

[28:57] a situation where it's been switched off

[29:00] for us

[29:02] we haven't had much of a vote

[29:07] and i know i was

[29:11] in the first part of the lockdown

[29:15] i found myself doing nothing

[29:18] and thinking oh

[29:21] this is novel and then i thought

[29:25] well julia you're supposed to be the

[29:27] queen of creativity

[29:30] surely you should be doing something so

[29:33] i called a girlfriend of mine a

[29:35] famous singer named judy collins

[29:38] and i called up judy and said

[29:41] what are you doing and judy said oh

[29:45] i'm writing a coffee table book i'm

[29:47] writing a longer book

[29:48] i'm putting that together songs i'm

[29:51] practicing the piano i'm painting

[29:53] and i was exhausted just listening to

[29:56] her

[29:57] and i found myself thinking well she

[30:00] should be who they're calling the queen

[30:02] of creativity

[30:04] and so we went on for a little while

[30:06] longer

[30:07] and i was writing guidance which it

[30:10] sounds like

[30:12] is something that liz does too

[30:15] where you write lj for little julie

[30:19] can i have guidance about x

[30:22] i and i wrote can i have guidance about

[30:24] x

[30:26] and i heard you're ready to start a new

[30:29] project

[30:31] start with birds and i thought

[30:35] birds but i

[30:38] took out a journal numbered the page

[30:42] number one

[30:44] and thought about birds and said

[30:47] aren't they lovely and that was the

[30:50] first line of a play

[30:52] uh and it gave me something

[30:57] happy to do in my isolation

[31:02] so every day i would say i don't know

[31:05] what the scene's supposed to be

[31:07] i'm panicking i don't know what comes

[31:10] next and the guidance would be

[31:13] sweetheart

[31:15] you don't need to know what comes next

[31:19] and i would keep writing so i that that

[31:22] brings me so nicely to one of the parts

[31:24] that

[31:24] is so important and i was lucky enough

[31:26] to talk to you liz i think a year ago

[31:28] two years ago and one of the things that

[31:30] you said about we talked about

[31:32] perfectionism which both julian and liz

[31:35] you both write very persuasively

[31:37] perfectionism

[31:38] is not a good thing julia you say

[31:41] it's not a quest for the best it is a

[31:43] pursuit for the very worst in ourselves

[31:46] tells us nothing we do will ever be good

[31:48] enough

[31:49] and liz you said when we spoke that i

[31:51] think perfectionism was

[31:53] fear dressed up in a mink coat and heels

[31:56] um so liz we'll start with you and i'd

[31:59] love to come back to you julia but

[32:00] why is perfectionism such a such an

[32:03] enemy of creativity really

[32:06] well it tends to kill things before they

[32:08] even begin um

[32:09] and and the way the reason it's so

[32:11] insidious is that it

[32:13] it disguises itself as an attribute so

[32:16] if you're on a on a job interview for

[32:19] instance and they ask you

[32:20] um what are your worst qualities we all

[32:22] know that the answer that you're

[32:23] supposed to give

[32:24] is that you're a perfectionist if

[32:25] anything i care too much you know

[32:27] because what you're signaling to

[32:29] your prospective boss is is what a hard

[32:31] worker you are

[32:32] and how you don't you won't settle for

[32:34] anything less than the best as julia has

[32:36] said

[32:36] um and it's just it's simply a lie i

[32:39] think perfectionism has

[32:41] killed more art projects than any

[32:43] dictator

[32:44] um any dictator uh or regime or

[32:47] censorship could ever have done you know

[32:49] it's the dictator within it's the tyrant

[32:51] who lives within

[32:52] who um who tells you that before you've

[32:54] even started that

[32:55] that it's not going to be good enough um

[32:58] and and for me

[32:59] a really big breakthrough was when i was

[33:01] working on my first novel and it wasn't

[33:03] good and and

[33:04] julia i've heard you say that one of the

[33:06] the dangers of a budding artist

[33:08] is comparing your work as the new artist

[33:11] to the work of

[33:11] masters and just how how vicious and

[33:14] cruel

[33:15] that comparison can be and and

[33:18] you know we have good taste what's what

[33:20] makes us want to become artists is that

[33:22] we know what good things are so when we

[33:23] start making them we can tell that they

[33:24] are good

[33:26] and and that's what stops you um but

[33:28] then how are you ever supposed to become

[33:30] a master

[33:31] and so i um when i was working on my

[33:34] first novel i

[33:35] how about halfway through i just i

[33:37] really started to lose heart for it

[33:38] because i could see that it was just so

[33:40] sub it was so sub perfect um

[33:43] and and and so far from what i imagined

[33:46] it to be in my head

[33:47] but i remember getting very stubborn and

[33:50] this is the thing about art is that

[33:51] there's a stubbornness

[33:52] to it that pushes back against

[33:54] perfectionism

[33:55] and and i got very stubborn one day and

[33:57] i stood up from my desk and i said aloud

[34:00] to the universe itself to

[34:02] my guides um i said i never promised you

[34:05] i would be a great writer i just thought

[34:07] i would be a writer

[34:08] i just thought i would be a writer and

[34:10] i'm not going to go to my death with 50

[34:12] pages of an unfinished novel in my desk

[34:14] so if people don't like it they can

[34:16] write their own you know

[34:19] and they won't they mostly won't because

[34:21] it's really hard to do

[34:22] so this isn't going to be good but it's

[34:24] going to be done

[34:25] um and and that is that the stubbornness

[34:28] that i think is

[34:29] is required to to push past the

[34:31] perfectionism and

[34:32] the expression that my mother taught me

[34:34] that done is better than good

[34:35] has gotten me through more projects than

[34:37] you could possibly imagine

[34:40] so i want to say that my inner

[34:43] perfectionist

[34:44] my sensor is somebody that i call

[34:48] nigel and

[34:51] nigel is a gay british interior

[34:53] decorator

[34:56] nothing that i do ever will measure up

[34:58] to nigel's standards

[35:01] so i when i write uh morning pages

[35:05] nigel will say oh julia you're boring

[35:09] and i've learned to say to nigel thank

[35:12] you for

[35:12] sharing and i think what we're talking

[35:15] about when we're talking about

[35:16] perfectionism

[35:18] is that artists who succeed are people

[35:21] who have learned to move

[35:22] past their perfectionism

[35:25] sometimes people come to study with me

[35:28] and they expect to be taught how to be

[35:31] fearless

[35:32] uh and i say to them no that isn't how

[35:35] it works

[35:37] what we learn to do is to create despite

[35:39] our fear

[35:41] and when you do morning pages you're

[35:44] miniaturizing your nigels

[35:47] and they go from being a big forbidding

[35:51] doomsday voice to being a little squeaky

[35:54] cartoon character

[35:56] who's always negative so um

[36:01] liz do you do you have a nigel or how do

[36:04] you silence your inner critic and i

[36:05] don't know if you if you've given that

[36:07] critical name perhaps you can now

[36:10] it's hard to compete with nigel i mean i

[36:12] think we can all see him

[36:13] you know one of the things is that i've

[36:15] i've learned

[36:16] that my you know once i once i

[36:19] discovered that perfectionism really

[36:20] truly is fear

[36:22] in high heels and a mink coat pretending

[36:24] to be fancy

[36:25] right um it's and you take it down to

[36:27] its base root and all it is is fear and

[36:29] disguise

[36:30] so as soon as i found that out that was

[36:32] a big piece of information to know that

[36:34] what i was hearing was not

[36:35] a a quest for excellence or um that what

[36:39] i was hearing was just

[36:40] terror um it was born of terror that i

[36:42] am not enough that i will

[36:44] never be enough that nothing i can do

[36:46] will ever be enough go back in your hole

[36:47] and die

[36:48] and um and and i now have made friends

[36:51] with my fear in that i recognize it to

[36:54] be the youngest part of me

[36:56] um it's it's it's a real child and

[36:59] so i speak very lovingly to it um i

[37:02] don't try to kick it out i don't try to

[37:04] throw it away i don't try to tell it to

[37:06] go to hell i see my

[37:08] my perfectionism as a baby in disguise

[37:11] a very frightened baby and so i i just

[37:14] i just talk to it and i let it speak um

[37:16] one of the things i do in my journal

[37:18] is when i feel fear i let my fear have a

[37:20] voice um

[37:22] so i say would you like would you like a

[37:24] few minutes

[37:25] to share with the rest of us what you're

[37:27] going through and then the fear is

[37:28] allowed to say what it's what it's

[37:30] feeling

[37:31] and and i listen to it with a great deal

[37:33] of respect um

[37:34] you know i never mock it i never yell at

[37:36] it and i just let it speak i think like

[37:38] all of us all at once is its voice to be

[37:40] heard

[37:40] and then once it's spoken then i say

[37:43] thank you

[37:44] i hear that i understand i can

[37:46] completely see why you would feel that

[37:47] way

[37:48] would you mind if we let wisdom speak

[37:49] now and

[37:51] um and can you just can you take a seat

[37:54] for a minute and we're going to bring

[37:55] wisdom in

[37:56] and wisdom what do you have to say about

[37:58] this and and we all have

[38:00] really deep reserves of both we all have

[38:03] really deep reserves of fear but we also

[38:05] all have very deep

[38:06] and oftentimes surprising reserves of

[38:08] wisdom and all you have to do is invite

[38:10] her in

[38:11] and ask her to speak and you'll be

[38:13] you'll be amazed at the beautiful

[38:14] guidance that you're given

[38:17] cute julia it seems that the way to

[38:19] counter as well this

[38:20] idea of perfection is to think of

[38:23] creativity as

[38:24] a process as you say is progress not

[38:26] perfection so

[38:27] you know you can't you say get better

[38:30] and look good at the same time you need

[38:32] to be willing to be a bad artist

[38:34] to get better is is that what your

[38:36] emphasis is

[38:37] is on when you're teaching and when

[38:39] you're trying to think of creativity

[38:40] it's about progress and process

[38:42] not kind of perfection and a successful

[38:44] product

[38:45] as a goal yes i think i want to teach

[38:49] people

[38:51] it's i think one of the big secrets we

[38:54] have a

[38:55] mythology around artists that says that

[38:58] artists are tortured

[39:00] artists are neurotic artists are broke

[39:04] artists are isolated

[39:08] and what we don't say is that it's fun

[39:13] and i think this the secret

[39:17] uh we we have a lot of mythology talking

[39:19] about

[39:20] great art is made from great pain

[39:24] and i think what we need to remember

[39:28] is that great art can be made from great

[39:31] joy

[39:33] and i think

[39:38] i i was interested in big magic

[39:43] you had the long list of fears

[39:46] and they were wonderful and i identified

[39:49] with all of them

[39:52] and i think

[39:53] [Music]

[39:55] when you do the guided writing could i

[39:57] have guidance about

[39:58] x you are asking to access

[40:01] wisdom and i think

[40:06] the voice that speaks to you then

[40:09] is kind calm

[40:12] tolerant encouraging uh and as we say

[40:17] what if it's just my imagination and

[40:19] then we think

[40:20] well then my imagination is a wonderful

[40:23] thing

[40:25] but um julia you mentioned this of

[40:28] mythologies and

[40:29] misconceptions which i think the whole

[40:31] book is about countering lots of the

[40:33] misconceptions about what

[40:34] artists are and one of the things is a

[40:37] judgment on artists for trying to make a

[40:39] living

[40:40] you know out of your art it's meant to

[40:41] be a hobby it's meant to be

[40:43] a side a side hustle why do you think

[40:46] we do judge people so much for that i

[40:48] mean people feel perhaps that they can't

[40:51] make their creativity into their life

[40:53] and their work because

[40:55] you know they they have reasons it's not

[40:57] financially viable or or as you say in

[40:59] the book perhaps they're too

[41:00] old so what did tell me

[41:04] your how how do you why does society

[41:08] have these misconceptions about artists

[41:10] and how are you trying to kind of

[41:12] dismantle them through through the

[41:14] artist's way

[41:16] well i i think the artist's way was a

[41:19] temper tantrum

[41:21] it had made a movie it got a wonderful

[41:24] review in london

[41:26] they said this woman is not an old

[41:28] coward but she is

[41:29] funny and i was delighted

[41:33] but in america because the sound had

[41:36] been stolen and the film had to be

[41:38] looped

[41:39] we we couldn't bring the film out

[41:42] in america and i found myself

[41:46] saying well it was worth it

[41:50] anyway to have spent two years

[41:53] making a feature film just to be able to

[41:55] say

[41:56] as liz said before it's done

[41:59] by god i did it

[42:03] and i think

[42:06] i had a temper tantrum

[42:10] when i found my film

[42:13] not being received in america and

[42:16] i said there has to be something good

[42:19] about

[42:19] sheer process

[42:23] so i i believe in process

[42:26] i've written many different forms i've

[42:29] written poetry

[42:31] musicals novels

[42:36] non-fiction spirituality prayer books

[42:39] and i think that they've all been

[42:41] written

[42:42] out of sort of taking an internal dare

[42:46] of oh you don't think you can do this

[42:51] well why don't you try

[42:55] it's all about risk it comes back to

[42:57] being playful

[42:58] willing to take risks and just before i

[43:01] go into um

[43:02] questions from the audience which

[43:03] reluctantly i'm going to have to do and

[43:04] that they're they're

[43:05] mounting up i can see them but i i one

[43:08] of the things that comes through

[43:09] in in the aspen i'm sure liz you will

[43:11] sort of be able to counter this or

[43:13] relate to this is the idea that

[43:15] choosing creativity uh as your as your

[43:17] career

[43:18] as your life is is seen as selfish by

[43:21] yourself and by others perhaps

[43:23] and i'm just wondering you know um

[43:25] whether you

[43:26] have sort of struggled with that the

[43:28] idea that outside you know feel people

[43:30] think that it's

[43:31] selfish of you to devote yourself to

[43:34] your creative pursuits

[43:35] um julia would say in fact the

[43:38] selflessness of it

[43:39] is that you then become a bridge again a

[43:41] different type of bridge

[43:42] and you know others can see what you're

[43:44] doing and they can cross from their

[43:46] self-doubt into self-expression

[43:48] through your through your example

[43:52] well it's it's it's the oldest

[43:56] recognizable human impulse is to make

[43:58] art it's in fact

[44:00] in most anthropological circles where

[44:02] they define when the modern human began

[44:05] um you can tell that some evolution of

[44:08] the mind occurred because now we're

[44:10] making art

[44:11] um and and my definition of art is

[44:13] making something more beautiful than it

[44:15] needs to be

[44:16] for no reason um you know and

[44:19] and that's when you start to see um you

[44:21] know

[44:22] the difference between the example that

[44:24] i like to give is my

[44:26] my grandparents who were depression era

[44:29] farmers in the 1930s dust bowl in

[44:31] minnesota

[44:32] scandinavian immigrants who were dairy

[44:34] farmers in northern minnesota you cannot

[44:36] come up with people less airy fairy than

[44:38] that

[44:38] you know like no nonsense they don't

[44:41] even like

[44:42] color they don't even like spices i mean

[44:44] these are these are

[44:45] hardened swedes fighting for their lives

[44:48] on the prairies

[44:49] um the last people in the world who

[44:50] would have considered themselves to be

[44:52] artists

[44:52] my grandmother made the most beautiful

[44:54] quilts that you could ever imagine

[44:56] and in in one regard it was a very

[44:59] pragmatic

[44:59] thing for her to do because she had

[45:01] seven children and no money and

[45:03] winters were cold and they needed quilts

[45:05] and it was a good way to use leftover

[45:07] bits of material because she was frugal

[45:09] those quilts did not need to be as

[45:11] beautiful as they were

[45:12] they did not there was there is no

[45:15] rational or pragmatic explanation for

[45:17] why they were as beautiful as they were

[45:19] why she put the amount of time into it

[45:21] it's not like she had a whole bunch of

[45:22] free time

[45:23] raising seven kids on a farm it was a

[45:26] priority for her that she probably would

[45:28] not would not have even been able to

[45:30] explain and my grandfather as well made

[45:32] beautiful woodworking like they

[45:34] before the age of mass media everybody

[45:37] made art

[45:38] everybody it's what it's just what you

[45:40] did with your hands and

[45:42] and you did it because it pleased you

[45:44] and you did it because it settled you

[45:46] and you did it because it connected you

[45:48] to stillness and

[45:49] you did it because it made your mind

[45:51] pleased to look at it

[45:53] so if we've lost something if we've

[45:56] created a world where you can only gauge

[45:58] whether or not something is worth doing

[46:00] by how many units of currency

[46:02] it produces um because that certainly

[46:05] wasn't why my grandmother was making

[46:06] quilts that

[46:07] to this day her descendants frame and

[46:09] hang on walls as art because they were

[46:11] that beautiful

[46:15] julia just just my my last thought on

[46:16] that is we've lost something if people

[46:18] do that but also

[46:19] it's it's about people trying to get out

[46:22] of making art their life

[46:24] making creativity their life would use

[46:26] various

[46:27] reasons like perhaps they say it's not

[46:30] their economic and financial reality and

[46:33] i know you have

[46:33] answers to that in in the book people

[46:35] can be listening saying

[46:37] i want to spend my my whole all my hours

[46:39] of my day

[46:40] devoting myself to my creativity but i

[46:42] can't because

[46:43] i can't make enough money that way

[46:47] well i think one of the things we don't

[46:49] talk about

[46:51] is that if you do something you love

[46:54] you tend to make money

[46:58] and um i think uh when we pre

[47:01] when we pursue uh a craft

[47:05] when we write nine novels uh what we are

[47:08] doing uh is that we are inviting the

[47:12] universe

[47:13] to give us a pat on the back uh

[47:16] and it does and i think

[47:21] that there's

[47:24] an optimistic benevolent world

[47:28] that we have been trained to ignore

[47:32] uh and when we start listening

[47:35] to that younger inner scamp of the self

[47:41] we begin to find oh

[47:45] maybe i could make a shekel or two at

[47:48] this

[47:50] and we do liz just before i go to the

[47:54] audience i'd love to hear your thoughts

[47:55] on well

[47:55] yeah i want to jump in with one thing

[47:57] here you can see me twitching in my seat

[47:59] when i was just beginning to write big

[48:00] magic i put a survey out on facebook

[48:04] um to hundreds of thousands of people

[48:06] and i said

[48:07] um what is the number one obstacle to

[48:10] you living a more creative life

[48:12] and 95 of the answers were the same

[48:15] which was i don't have time

[48:19] so um you didn't burst out laughing so

[48:21] i'm going to repeat it to see if you can

[48:22] hear the absurdity

[48:23] i put out a survey on social media

[48:26] asking people what the number one

[48:30] obstacle to them having a more creative

[48:31] life was and hundreds of thousands of

[48:33] people who were at that moment

[48:35] sitting staring at their phone on

[48:36] facebook said i don't have any free time

[48:40] so i just want to point out like part of

[48:42] the discipline

[48:43] is getting honest and getting i would

[48:45] use the word sober

[48:47] about where your time is actually going

[48:51] and i would very you know really

[48:53] challenge this um

[48:54] i mean whenever people write to me and

[48:56] say i wish i could be more creative and

[48:58] i don't have time i always want to say

[48:59] do not make me go and look at your page

[49:01] and see what you've been up to because i

[49:03] will and i will call you out on it

[49:05] do not make me go into your phone and

[49:06] check your usage to see how many hours

[49:08] you have spent on instagram and facebook

[49:10] this week

[49:11] i will do it how what's your favorite

[49:12] television show

[49:14] um how many hours have you spent

[49:15] watching it how where are you

[49:17] where are you actually putting your

[49:20] hours um

[49:20] and i think i don't have enough time is

[49:22] also fear

[49:24] in disguise um and and i don't believe

[49:27] it

[49:28] i'll make an exception if you're um a

[49:30] working mother during covid and you have

[49:31] young children at home under the age of

[49:33] five your excuse

[49:34] [Laughter]

[49:36] you just i think i don't know people

[49:38] going to you yeah yeah i'll say

[49:40] i'll send babysitters over to your house

[49:42] right now but no i think i think

[49:44] you have to get i think you just have to

[49:45] get really brutally and even there my

[49:47] friend glennon doyle who's got the

[49:48] number one book in america right now

[49:50] um started writing when she was as a mom

[49:53] with with three young kids and she

[49:55] had this realization that all she had to

[49:57] do in order to become a writer was to

[49:59] stop

[49:59] watching tv and that was such a hard

[50:02] thing for her to give up because tv was

[50:03] the finish line at the end of the hard

[50:05] day

[50:05] it's essentially like a visual glass of

[50:07] wine you can sit down and zone out

[50:09] but if she stopped watching tv and went

[50:12] to bed at the same time her kids went to

[50:14] bed so her kids went to bed at 8 30 she

[50:16] went to bed at 8 30. she set the alarm

[50:18] for 4 30

[50:19] got up and wrote for an hour and a half

[50:21] before her children woke up that's how

[50:22] she started writing

[50:24] so i mean there are examples out there

[50:26] people who just got very rigorous and

[50:27] very sober and very honest

[50:29] about where their where their actual

[50:31] time was going

[50:33] so i i am here to call everybody out on

[50:35] that and you have to call yourself out

[50:36] on it you know um i

[50:37] i actually can't go and see how much

[50:39] time you've been spending on social

[50:40] media but you can and and it might be

[50:42] helpful for you to see that

[50:44] it's horrifying for me when i look at

[50:45] how much time i spend and i do it i look

[50:47] at it and i'm like

[50:48] god there's hours that i'll never have

[50:51] back

[50:52] i agree those apps and you can see how

[50:54] long at the end of each day you've been

[50:56] on and then i try

[50:56] then you i try and punish myself by

[50:58] going off the whole next day and then it

[51:00] just goes up and down like a yoga

[51:02] and thank you both so much i'm going to

[51:04] go to the audience questions but julia i

[51:05] know you're nodding at that because of

[51:06] course in the artist's way it's very

[51:08] much the message that

[51:09] those excuses about time and age and

[51:12] money are all really fear and

[51:14] and when you think about it differently

[51:16] you can put them all aside and just put

[51:18] a pin in them saying that's fear

[51:19] i can overcome that in various ways but

[51:22] there are so many questions

[51:24] going over 50 so i'm sorry if i don't

[51:26] get to it um

[51:29] someone asks and i'd love to hear both

[51:31] both of your answers on this

[51:32] how do you face that i'm not good enough

[51:34] fear how do you move

[51:35] past it when i'm wrestling with my work

[51:38] the question of

[51:39] what's the point i'm sure this is

[51:40] relevant to so many people

[51:42] is always present julia do you want to

[51:44] answer that and then liz

[51:47] well this is where i think artists dates

[51:50] come in

[51:51] i think when we go on an artist's date

[51:54] or when we

[51:55] do an artist date within our confines of

[51:58] our own home

[51:59] what happens is we have

[52:03] an inkling or a hunch

[52:06] that maybe we're enough

[52:09] and the idea that maybe we're enough

[52:13] uh is the ammunition that you use

[52:17] to fight with i'm not good enough

[52:20] i recently i've published 40 books

[52:23] that's a lot of books

[52:25] it's been about a book a year since i

[52:27] was 30.

[52:29] and what happens is that

[52:35] i find myself

[52:38] i was teaching a writing workshop about

[52:42] a month ago

[52:43] and i realized that i had what i call

[52:46] the imposter syndrome

[52:48] that there i was 40 books published

[52:52] and i was still saying i don't know if

[52:54] i'm a real writer

[52:59] so i think uh i think the answer to

[53:03] am i a real writer is well sweetie

[53:06] did you write today and if you wrote

[53:09] today maybe you're a real writer and i

[53:12] want to

[53:12] say i have a girlfriend jennifer a

[53:15] wonderful actress

[53:18] and she says we all have 20 minutes

[53:22] and that if you give 20 minutes to your

[53:25] art form

[53:26] you will succeed

[53:31] liz do you do you have anything to add

[53:33] to the question about

[53:35] you know um that last question that i

[53:37] read out

[53:38] about i just want everybody to really

[53:41] take in what you just heard

[53:43] which is julia cameron saying that she

[53:46] had imposter syndrome for teaching a

[53:47] creativity workshop

[53:49] so if you so just like next time you

[53:51] have imposter syndrome i want you to

[53:52] just remember

[53:53] that moment that we were all just

[53:55] privileged to see to to show us that

[53:57] it's not special to you um it's really

[54:01] not special to you it's actually just a

[54:03] part of the process that happens to

[54:05] as we've just seen quite literally

[54:07] everybody and um and

[54:09] the thing that i combat it with or when

[54:11] people say to me i'm going to go back to

[54:12] the what's the point

[54:13] question um so it's not what you think

[54:17] that's all i know the point of whatever

[54:18] you create is not what you think it's

[54:20] going to be you you have no way of

[54:21] knowing

[54:22] in advance what if anything the point

[54:24] will be i'm also a big fan of doing

[54:25] things for no point at all

[54:27] um but but i think that um what i can

[54:30] promise you

[54:31] anybody uh and i always say this to

[54:33] because i mostly speak to people who who

[54:35] want to be writing

[54:36] um i cannot promise you that that your

[54:39] book will be good

[54:40] um that it will be seen as good i cannot

[54:42] promise you that you will find

[54:44] an agent i mean we're all adults here so

[54:46] i i like to be honest with people i

[54:48] can't promise you that you'll get

[54:49] published i can't promise you that if

[54:50] you'll get published you'll get reviewed

[54:51] i can't promise you that if you get

[54:53] reviewed you'll be purchased

[54:54] um i can't promise you that that any of

[54:57] that will happen but i can

[54:58] there's one sacred promise that i can

[55:00] make for you and that is that

[55:02] you will know so much more about

[55:04] yourself

[55:05] and about life and about the world at

[55:07] the end of that project than you knew at

[55:09] the beginning

[55:10] promise and that to me seems

[55:13] entirely a good enough reason to do

[55:16] something just out of the curiosity

[55:18] aren't you curious to see who you'll be

[55:20] on the other side of that

[55:21] and and that alone i think is is reason

[55:24] to to create

[55:25] absolutely anything that you want

[55:28] there's another question here that i i

[55:30] love which says could you both

[55:32] speak about the courage to be weird and

[55:34] new

[55:35] and different and the willingness to

[55:36] lose some old stuff to honor the new and

[55:39] fresh stream of creativity and guidance

[55:42] um perhaps julia and then and then liz

[55:45] if you could

[55:45] ask that i know it's a big theme of the

[55:47] artist's way to

[55:49] lose the old and not be afraid to be new

[55:51] and different

[55:53] this is where i'm a fanatic

[55:58] i make coffee the night before i put it

[56:01] in the refrigerator

[56:03] when i get up in the morning i pad to

[56:05] the kitchen i open the refrigerator i

[56:07] pour

[56:07] iced coffee and i go to the page

[56:11] and what happens on the page

[56:15] is that i'm led somewhere further

[56:19] uh and when i'm led somewhere further

[56:23] i may walk and dig my heels in and say

[56:27] oh i can't do that but there's this tiny

[56:30] little voice that says

[56:32] maybe you can uh and

[56:36] so as you write your morning pages

[56:39] uh and then i have another tool that i

[56:42] like which is take a 20-minute walk

[56:45] and do that a couple times each week and

[56:48] that what happens

[56:50] uh is that you begin to have a new

[56:53] definition of yourself

[56:56] you're the person who walked isn't that

[56:59] wonderful

[57:00] you're the person who took an art estate

[57:03] isn't that wonderful

[57:05] and when you do these things

[57:08] which are weird

[57:12] what happens is you start to have a new

[57:14] definition of yourself as

[57:16] daring and i i think

[57:19] that working with my tool kit

[57:23] brings you to a sense of oh

[57:27] i'm actually rather brave rather

[57:30] weird rather lovely

[57:33] i i think i'll try them again

[57:38] um liz do you have anything to feed into

[57:41] that sort of that

[57:42] bravery and courage to be weird and new

[57:44] and different and

[57:45] and sort of shed some of the old stuff

[57:47] how that feels and how you do that

[57:49] well i'm just coming to you as a 51 year

[57:52] old woman

[57:52] whose life does not look even remotely

[57:56] like what i had planned when i was a 21

[57:59] year old woman

[58:00] um i really had a pretty narrow view

[58:04] at that point and what a woman's life

[58:06] should be and what a woman's life should

[58:07] look like

[58:08] um i am twice divorced

[58:12] so obviously things didn't go as planned

[58:14] um i consider myself to be a widow

[58:16] because the love of my life my partner

[58:18] reya passed away two years ago

[58:20] so i'm a choice divorced bisexual widow

[58:22] with no children

[58:25] living by herself in a tiny weird old

[58:29] church

[58:29] in a very rednecky part of new jersey

[58:33] um not at

[58:36] all what the plan was so much better

[58:40] than what the plan was um so so

[58:43] so much better and i am i have become

[58:46] everything

[58:47] that society teaches girls if you're not

[58:49] careful

[58:50] you might end up being this dreadful

[58:52] terrible thing

[58:53] um a middle-aged woman living alone and

[58:57] and i have become that and i quite

[59:00] literally live in a state of glee

[59:06] do you know what it's so wonderful and i

[59:08] sent a quote

[59:09] from your book it's not actually your

[59:12] you it's robert louis stevenson i sent

[59:13] it to my family today it says to know

[59:15] what you prefer instead of humbly saying

[59:17] amen to what the world tells you you

[59:19] ought to prefer

[59:20] is to have kept your soul alive and i

[59:22] sent that to my family today and said

[59:23] please put this on

[59:25] my gravestone so i think that sounds

[59:27] like a very good

[59:28] a good ending thank you so much liz and

[59:30] i'm really sorry to have gone through

[59:32] the time

[59:33] um so quickly because there's just so

[59:35] much more to hear from you both it's

[59:37] been

[59:37] truly such a pleasure and someone says

[59:40] oh no my laptop

[59:41] quit when liz was talking about

[59:42] spirituality don't worry we'll send

[59:45] a link to everyone who's watching um i

[59:47] think in the morning so that you can

[59:49] you can watch it back again for anything

[59:51] you missed and as i say there is

[59:52] so much more we could cover but thank

[59:54] you both very very much indeed for

[59:56] joining us

[59:57] it's a great honor to have you both

[59:59] thank you hannah thank you liz

[1:00:02] thank you hannah and thank you julia

[1:00:05] hannah it's

[1:00:05] always a delight to see you and julia

[1:00:07] you are everything i ever dreamed thank

[1:00:10] you so much for sharing this time with

[1:00:11] me it's a real honor

Elizabeth Gilbert
ArtistElizabeth Gilbert

American author whose 2006 memoir Eat Pray Love — a year-long journey through Italy, India, and Indonesia in search of pleasure, devotion, and balance — became one of the most-read…

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CreativityMorning-pagesArtistic-blocksPerfectionism-fearSelf-discovery

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Frequently Asked Questions

Morning pages are three pages of longhand writing each morning, unfiltered and unedited, about anything that crosses your mind. They train you to listen to yourself by repeatedly surfacing desires and insights until you can't ignore them—like Elizabeth Gilbert's repeated wish to speak Italian.
Elizabeth Gilbert was blocked and depressed during her divorce when a friend gave her the book. Through morning pages, she discovered she wanted to speak Italian—a desire she didn't consciously know she had. She took lessons, traveled to Rome, and that journey became the entire foundation of Eat, Pray, Love.
Perfectionism disguises itself as high standards but actually functions as fear—fear that your work isn't good enough, so you never finish or share it. This keeps you blocked. Done is better than good because a finished, imperfect work has more power and momentum than an endlessly refined work that never leaves your hands.
An artist's date is a solo outing of a few hours doing something joyful and delightful with no productive purpose—visiting a museum, sitting by water, exploring a flea market. It's an act of devotion to your creative self, proof that your joy matters and is worth protecting.
Morning pages will surface your hidden desires repeatedly. As they keep appearing on the page, you move from denial to curiosity to acceptance. By the end of the book, you underline what keeps showing up, revealing what you've been silencing from yourself.
No. The mythology of the tortured artist isn't necessary for making great work. Blocked, unhappy people sometimes use art to heal, but the art isn't created by the suffering—the art is the healing. You can access creativity in health and joy, not only in crisis.
A finished, imperfect work has more power and momentum than an endlessly refined work that's never completed. Perfectionism kills momentum by making you postpone the moment your work becomes real in the world. Accepting your human scale and limitations is how you actually move forward.

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