Transcript
[0:03] hello hello everyone good evening thank
[0:05] you very much
[0:06] for joining us i am delighted to see so
[0:09] many of you tuning in i can see the
[0:11] numbers whizzing up on the bottom of
[0:12] my screen and choosing to spend your
[0:15] evening with us
[0:16] or i should probably say afternoon or
[0:17] morning depending on whereabouts in the
[0:19] world
[0:20] you're tuning in from and i have no
[0:21] doubt given our subject matter and our
[0:23] two very exciting guests this evening
[0:25] that there will be people tuning in
[0:27] from far and wide so i'm thrilled to
[0:29] welcome all of you on behalf of the how
[0:31] to academy
[0:32] and i normally say at this point and
[0:34] that i regret that we can't all be in
[0:36] the same room
[0:36] and while i do i think given the amount
[0:38] signing in we probably wouldn't fit
[0:40] anyway so i am
[0:41] very glad that we can all come together
[0:44] thanks to the
[0:45] marvels of zoom um and discuss this
[0:48] in my hands extraordinary book and and i
[0:51] say book but of course it's so much more
[0:53] than that it's a phenomenon
[0:55] since its original publication nearly
[0:57] three decades ago now
[0:58] it's gone on to start a movement to
[1:00] inspire millions
[1:02] uh it's been published in i think over
[1:04] 40 languages it sold over five million
[1:06] copies to date i'm sure while i'm
[1:07] speaking
[1:08] the number will be rising to six million
[1:10] and so
[1:11] as i say the artist's way a spiritual
[1:13] path to higher creativity which is of
[1:15] course the inspiration
[1:17] for our discussion this evening uh in
[1:19] its new updated form
[1:21] has transformed the lives of so many
[1:22] it's helped people to discover their
[1:24] creativity and their passions you'll
[1:26] want to if you haven't already
[1:28] thrusted into the hands of absolutely
[1:30] everybody that you know
[1:32] and in its advocacy also of self-care
[1:35] and
[1:35] nourishment and encouraging you to
[1:37] really live life it's
[1:38] more than a guide to our statistic
[1:40] success i think it's a guide to really
[1:42] how to live a fulfilling life overall
[1:44] but it has been
[1:45] uh hailed by many of the world's most
[1:47] celebrated artists from
[1:49] booker prize winners musicians like
[1:51] alicia keys and
[1:53] the who's pete townsend reese
[1:55] witherspoon russell brand the list goes
[1:57] on
[1:57] um who all cite a big debt of gratitude
[2:00] to its author
[2:01] so it feels really almost like a treat
[2:04] too far to be joined this evening
[2:06] not only by the author herself who's
[2:08] also a poet a songwriter filmmaker
[2:11] playwright again the list goes on as
[2:13] well as a best-selling author
[2:14] she's been dubbed the high priestess or
[2:16] the godmother of creativity
[2:18] hailed as the queen of change by the new
[2:21] york times um
[2:22] but we also have with us one of those
[2:24] great detailers
[2:26] who herself is of course an icon and an
[2:28] inspiration to millions
[2:29] and who says that without this
[2:31] creativity bible
[2:32] she would never have written her seminal
[2:34] book eat pray love
[2:36] so julia cameron and elizabeth gilbert
[2:39] we feel very blessed to have you both
[2:40] here thank you so much
[2:42] for joining us um so i'm gonna start off
[2:46] i'm sure many of you will have read it
[2:48] and i'm sure many of you might know its
[2:50] history but
[2:51] julia i'd like to roll two questions
[2:53] into one to you at the beginning to say
[2:55] how did the artist's way first come to
[2:58] be
[2:59] what your original tension was when it
[3:01] was published as i say nearly a quarter
[3:02] of a century ago
[3:03] and did you expect this extraordinary
[3:05] popularity i've heard you say
[3:07] that you feel dazed overwhelmed and
[3:09] confused by the velocity of people
[3:11] and events so did you expect it would
[3:13] speak to millions in this way
[3:17] no i thought i was writing a book for 10
[3:21] friends i i had friends who were blocked
[3:24] and i knew how to unblock
[3:26] uh and i thought well i'll just write
[3:30] some little essays and mail them to them
[3:33] so it was initially intended as
[3:36] a very intimate little book and when it
[3:40] was first published
[3:42] they published an intimate little number
[3:44] of books
[3:45] because they thought well it's just a
[3:49] little california book
[3:51] and it's not going to catch on worldwide
[3:55] certainly
[3:56] so we'll just publish a few so they
[3:59] published a few
[4:00] uh and then there was a demand for more
[4:03] uh
[4:04] and it wasn't until we had sold a
[4:06] hundred thousand books
[4:08] that they said oh maybe we should take
[4:11] this book a little bit
[4:13] seriously so
[4:16] go ahead and to liz then i mean
[4:19] how did you first where come across it
[4:22] and
[4:22] i mean i know you say it's sort of
[4:24] changed your life
[4:26] i came across that i remember seeing it
[4:29] for years um
[4:30] it's it's the kind of book that's on the
[4:32] bookshelves of
[4:33] every person who i would be interested
[4:35] in right like it's it's one of those
[4:37] books but i
[4:38] didn't think that i ever needed it
[4:39] because i my creativity was the one part
[4:41] of my life that i felt like did flow
[4:44] in a natural way and it was other parts
[4:47] of my life that were a disaster
[4:49] namely intimacy and relationships but my
[4:51] intimacy and relationship
[4:53] disaster got so big that it swallowed my
[4:56] creativity
[4:57] and um and i indeed became blocked and
[4:59] stuck um not just in my creative life
[5:01] but just in my life
[5:02] in general and this was um around the
[5:04] time that i turned 30 and i was going
[5:06] through a divorce and
[5:07] a depression and a friend gave me
[5:11] the artist's way and i and i i did it
[5:15] i did it loyally i did it to the letter
[5:18] because i'm such a good rule follower
[5:20] that's one thing that i
[5:21] love about the book is like tell me what
[5:23] you know when you're desperate you just
[5:24] want somebody to tell you what to do
[5:26] so tell me what to do julia and i'll do
[5:28] it and i did every single thing that she
[5:30] suggested and all the exercises and the
[5:32] morning pages and the artist dates and
[5:34] and at the end of the book um there's a
[5:36] point julia where you you suggest that
[5:37] we go back
[5:38] and we look over and we see what keeps
[5:40] showing up
[5:41] page after page after page and underline
[5:43] the things that keep showing up and what
[5:45] kept showing up on mine
[5:47] was i wish i could speak italian i
[5:50] didn't know this about myself
[5:52] i didn't know this piece of information
[5:54] about myself i'd kept that hidden from
[5:56] myself but it was on almost every page
[5:57] and
[5:58] i was so surprised by that and i thought
[6:00] apparently i really want to speak
[6:02] italian how am i going to do that
[6:03] and um and i started taking lessons that
[6:06] started to pull me out of my depression
[6:07] and the next thing you know i was on a
[6:08] plane to rome and that began you pray
[6:10] love
[6:11] so i can truly say that um that without
[6:14] your book julia eat pray love would have
[6:15] never
[6:15] existed i never would have known what i
[6:17] needed or wanted
[6:20] yes i i think the book gives us many
[6:23] little
[6:23] hints about what it is we truly love and
[6:27] we're truly interested in
[6:29] julia perhaps you could explain to
[6:31] people who don't know just very quickly
[6:33] those morning pages and artist dates
[6:35] what they what they are um they
[6:37] obviously helped liz so much
[6:39] and people perhaps don't know exactly
[6:41] what they are and what their purpose is
[6:44] okay so we'll start with morning pages
[6:48] morning pages are three pages
[6:51] of long hand warning writing about
[6:54] absolutely anything that crosses your
[6:56] mind
[6:57] it's like you take a little whisk room
[7:00] and you poke it into the corners of your
[7:02] life
[7:03] and you bring all the debris and rubble
[7:05] into the center of the room
[7:06] where you can do something about it and
[7:10] pages are top of the head
[7:14] they're not art they're not supposed to
[7:17] be
[7:17] quote real writing although i think
[7:20] sometimes in liz could back me up on
[7:22] this
[7:23] sometimes real writers have a
[7:25] regrettable tendency to think
[7:27] gee i should be writing more seriously
[7:30] and here i am writing
[7:32] fragmented little thoughts so
[7:35] it's as if you have add you write i
[7:38] forgot to call my sister back i didn't
[7:41] like how fred talked to me the car has a
[7:43] funny knock in it i didn't buy kitty
[7:45] litter
[7:46] everything from the the petty to the
[7:48] profound
[7:50] and you simply keep your hand moving
[7:52] across the page and what they do
[7:56] is that they train you to expand
[7:59] uh you'll you'll be riding along and
[8:02] you'll hear i wish i could speak italian
[8:05] uh
[8:06] or i wish i could write music
[8:10] and you'll think i can't do that and
[8:13] then you'll write along and then it'll
[8:14] come up again
[8:16] and you'll think oh
[8:20] maybe i could try that and then they
[8:22] come up again
[8:24] and by now you're sick of them and
[8:27] you say oh for christ's sake all right
[8:30] i'll give it a shot
[8:32] and so they've trained you to expand
[8:35] they make you larger than your current
[8:37] size
[8:38] um i sometimes call the pages the bridge
[8:43] and again this is something that liz
[8:45] could talk more about
[8:47] on that um when people are ready to
[8:51] change
[8:52] sizes to go from being little me to be
[8:56] big me that's when they encountered the
[8:59] bridge
[9:00] uh and um yeah
[9:04] yeah go ahead i wonder if liz wanted to
[9:06] sort of pick up on that
[9:08] you know the bridge does that do you
[9:10] feel
[9:11] do you understand the relevance of that
[9:14] i do
[9:14] and and it's so surprising what ends up
[9:17] being the bridge
[9:18] um you know that there's an adage i love
[9:21] that the
[9:22] the same mind that created the problem
[9:24] cannot solve the problem
[9:26] right so this this evolution of spirit
[9:28] that i think julia's talking about where
[9:30] you have to
[9:31] you have to change it's a very tricky
[9:35] sort of spiritual mystical thing because
[9:37] you have to
[9:38] draw this information out of a mind that
[9:41] is incapable of change
[9:42] it's why you're stuck so when you're at
[9:45] your very most stuck you've got to find
[9:47] that bridge somehow
[9:48] um and i think why the morning pages are
[9:51] so brilliant
[9:52] precisely because they are sort of
[9:54] unconscious i've heard you say julia
[9:56] that
[9:56] that if you you know part of the morning
[9:58] pages is you grab that journal
[10:00] right when you wake up and and you you
[10:03] know you haven't had time
[10:04] yet to become yourself um you know i
[10:07] think
[10:08] you said once in an interview julia that
[10:09] it takes you 45 minutes
[10:11] um to become who you are when you wake
[10:13] up in the morning
[10:14] so you're trying to catch that moment
[10:15] before you've solidified and cemented
[10:18] and
[10:18] the gatekeeper is not awake yet right
[10:20] the gatekeeper's not awake yet and so
[10:22] everything can kind of
[10:23] slip in and and for me it really was
[10:26] italian that was the bridge
[10:28] um i i could have never known that um i
[10:31] just had to trust that
[10:32] something was telling me that i wanted
[10:34] to do that and it ended up being the
[10:35] bridge because
[10:37] i had no memories or words in english
[10:40] that were not associated with depression
[10:42] but italian was a whole new language
[10:44] around which there was no depression
[10:46] no memories and no sorrow so it
[10:48] literally was a bridge to a new part of
[10:50] my mind
[10:51] um and and i could not have possibly
[10:54] known that if i hadn't done those
[10:55] morning pages
[10:56] week after week after week and just seen
[10:58] that little piece of information
[10:59] slipping in from
[11:00] the fairies and letting letting you know
[11:03] what the next clue was on your journey
[11:06] you you talk about fairies and you said
[11:08] spirituality a few times you both have
[11:10] and i know that in the book um julia you
[11:13] say artists through the centuries have
[11:15] spoken of inspiration confiding
[11:17] that god spoke to them or angels did and
[11:19] these days
[11:20] that seldom mentioned spirituality is
[11:23] mostly central to all of this
[11:25] not necessarily a god a god that's
[11:27] everyone can get you know put their own
[11:30] god in there and that hasn't seemed to
[11:32] put people off and
[11:33] do you think that's because you've said
[11:35] be open-minded
[11:36] substitute god for direction or flow
[11:41] yes i think right at the very beginning
[11:43] of the book i say
[11:44] okay we're going to talk about god
[11:48] uh and i want you to be careful uh
[11:51] to not let semantics be a block for you
[11:55] if you are an atheist and you do the
[11:58] tools
[11:58] you will still have a spiritual
[12:00] awakening although you may not call it
[12:03] a spiritual awakening and i recently had
[12:07] a man say to me julia i've been doing
[12:11] morning pages for 22 years
[12:14] i'm an atheist and i said oh i'm a
[12:16] believer
[12:18] and we sort of stared at each other and
[12:21] he said i've written 13 movies
[12:25] and i said to him well you don't believe
[12:28] in god but clearly god believes in you
[12:32] and so i i think
[12:36] calling it flow the muse the universe
[12:39] the higher power whatever you care to
[12:42] call it
[12:44] it doesn't really seem to care what you
[12:47] name it
[12:49] provided you realize that when you do
[12:52] morning pages
[12:53] you contact a larger benevolent
[12:57] something that is friendly to you and
[13:00] your goals
[13:03] and for a lot of us this is a
[13:05] breakthrough
[13:06] we have had a god concept that was very
[13:09] negative and authoritarian
[13:12] and we thought god didn't want us to get
[13:15] too uppity
[13:17] and here all of a sudden we say oh
[13:20] actually god is on your side
[13:25] so um that's my scoop
[13:29] your scoop wonderful liz that scoop what
[13:32] does it look like for you i know you
[13:33] know big magic is very much about that
[13:36] unnamed thing but perhaps you could tell
[13:37] us what that spirituality
[13:39] feels like for you and i know you
[13:41] wouldn't be able to define it because
[13:43] as julia says it's not about semantics
[13:46] right if i if i knew what god
[13:47] was it wouldn't be god uh
[13:51] it's not but i um i like
[13:54] personally to work with the difference
[13:56] in definition whenever i talk about god
[13:58] um and i know that british people
[14:00] especially get start to get hives and
[14:02] anxiety so i always
[14:03] want to say um look don't don't panic
[14:07] like don't panic the god that you don't
[14:10] believe in
[14:11] i also don't believe in um so whatever
[14:14] it is that was put into your head that
[14:15] you thought this is insane and
[14:16] ridiculous and
[14:17] and brutal i agree um and and i think
[14:20] what we're talking about here's the
[14:22] difference between religion and
[14:23] spirituality
[14:24] and my favorite definition to help us
[14:26] kind of clear the way on that is that
[14:28] religion is for people who are afraid of
[14:30] going to hell
[14:31] and spirituality is for people who have
[14:33] already been there
[14:34] and needed to get out and what got them
[14:38] out was reaching for something higher
[14:40] um reaching for something more eternal
[14:42] more expansive more loving more
[14:44] connective so even higher mind is a
[14:46] lovely way to put it
[14:47] um i often have deep passionate
[14:50] beautiful conversations on the page
[14:52] between me and this
[14:53] thing this source and sometimes i say to
[14:56] it
[14:57] am i just imagining you and and it says
[15:00] it doesn't matter
[15:01] if you're just imagining me then thank
[15:03] you imagination for providing me with
[15:05] this beautiful
[15:06] um conversation that we're engaged in
[15:09] you know part of the human dilemma is
[15:10] this this constant need to empirically
[15:12] know
[15:12] why and that's something that the more i
[15:14] let go of that the more i can be in the
[15:16] flow
[15:17] and just take instructions and and mind
[15:19] my own business and do what i'm told
[15:22] i i think that what comes comes across
[15:25] from this is this
[15:26] hugely important thing all the way
[15:28] through and the artist's way and the
[15:30] journey is about being
[15:32] playful and treating your creativity
[15:34] like an inner child and julia you write
[15:36] all the way through let yourself
[15:38] play creativity is not sensible it's
[15:41] never been sensible why should it be why
[15:43] should you be
[15:44] um i i love this fact you know the the
[15:47] artist you
[15:47] have to nurture it like an inner child
[15:49] and julia perhaps you could tell us
[15:50] first off
[15:51] about that why that's so important that
[15:53] that child and then liz i'd love to know
[15:55] how that's
[15:56] uh affected which i think it has you
[15:58] sort of embodied that going forward in
[16:00] all your journeys and adventures and
[16:02] experiences that you've chosen to kind
[16:04] of lap up
[16:06] so i think i want to say that serious
[16:10] art
[16:10] is born from serious play i
[16:13] and that when i go out to teach i if i
[16:16] say
[16:17] i have a tool it's a nightmare
[16:20] you'll have to wake up 45 minutes early
[16:23] you'll have to be vulnerable uh you'll
[16:26] have to
[16:27] really work at getting the three pages
[16:30] done
[16:31] they say oh work we get it we we're
[16:34] ready to work on our creativity
[16:36] and then if i say well i'd like you to
[16:39] do something else
[16:41] once a week i'd like you to take
[16:43] yourself on a solo
[16:46] festive enchanting expedition
[16:50] to do something that intrigues or
[16:52] interests you
[16:54] in other words i want you to play and
[16:56] people are
[16:57] immediately offended arms get crossed
[17:01] and they they play i don't see
[17:04] what play has to do with creativity and
[17:07] i try to explain to them
[17:09] that when we make a piece of art any
[17:12] kind of art
[17:13] we're drawing on an inner well which is
[17:16] filled with images
[17:18] and if we are working flat out we're
[17:22] fishing from the well
[17:23] and sometimes we over fish the well
[17:27] and when we reach for an image there's
[17:30] nothing to catch so when we go out on an
[17:34] artist's date once a week
[17:36] what we're doing is we're replenishing
[17:39] our creative well
[17:41] and my favorite artist date is a pet
[17:44] store in evanston illinois
[17:46] where they have a bunny named george
[17:50] and you're allowed to pet george
[17:53] and there's something wonderful about
[17:56] just petting this tiny little creature
[17:59] and uh it gives you a sense of frivolity
[18:04] uh and frivolity is where you get your
[18:08] best ideas
[18:10] i mean liz i would i would love to hear
[18:13] your your response to that i mean
[18:15] first of all do you still do do you do
[18:18] your artist dates do you still do your
[18:20] own states and
[18:21] make kind of play dates with yourself
[18:22] what does that look like for you
[18:25] i do and um and i call them artist dates
[18:28] um
[18:28] i i know exactly what it is that i'm
[18:30] doing i will always call them artist
[18:32] dates um
[18:33] trademark julia cameron um
[18:36] you know i have a um i have a friend a
[18:38] very wise teacher and friend who always
[18:40] says to me do something different until
[18:42] something better comes along
[18:44] and and for me an artist date is doing
[18:47] something different
[18:48] what i feel like where i can get trapped
[18:50] and where many people can get trapped
[18:52] is in something that we call well that i
[18:55] call commuter mind
[18:56] and commuter mind is um born of true
[19:00] despair
[19:01] and in my world the definition of
[19:02] despair is the belief that tomorrow is
[19:04] going to be exactly the same as today
[19:06] now there's no no sign ever in nature
[19:09] that tomorrow
[19:10] is going to be exactly the same as today
[19:12] which is nothing in nature
[19:13] is the same tomorrow as it is today um
[19:16] but
[19:17] we fall into that belief and then we get
[19:19] frozen um
[19:20] and it's the same it's the same commute
[19:22] every morning it's the same breakfast
[19:24] sandwich every morning it's the same
[19:25] office meeting every morning it's the
[19:27] same
[19:27] parking spot every morning and you get
[19:30] it's it's a fault it's very unnatural
[19:32] because that's not actually how nature
[19:33] flows
[19:34] um but it's this sort of industrial
[19:36] human construct that we've placed around
[19:38] time and around nature
[19:39] so for me i think the artist date is a
[19:42] very rebellious disruption
[19:44] of commuter mind and and i
[19:47] also like to not plan it too much
[19:50] because
[19:51] i know that my ego will co-opt it and
[19:53] turn it into something try to
[19:55] try to turn it into some multi-tasking
[19:57] thing and so i mean i had one the other
[19:59] day
[19:59] um in the spring one of the first warm
[20:00] days of spring during covid where i
[20:02] i woke up very early and i have a very
[20:05] serious meditation practice
[20:07] um that takes up a couple hours in
[20:09] creativity practice all my practices
[20:10] take up a few hours every morning and
[20:12] they're good but they're rigid
[20:14] um you know i can i can make anything
[20:16] into rigidity
[20:17] and i just woke up one morning and i
[20:18] thought it's time for an artist date i'm
[20:20] going to the ocean
[20:21] and i jumped in the car and started
[20:22] driving with no sense of which ocean
[20:25] where
[20:26] which beach um and i kept saying as i
[20:29] was driving i wonder where i'm going and
[20:30] i wonder why i'm doing this
[20:33] but that was just my mind demanding
[20:35] again to know why why why
[20:37] why why and my creativity was saying i
[20:39] don't know
[20:40] we'll see when we get there let's go
[20:41] find out um and
[20:43] you know took an exit for a sign that
[20:45] said beaches an hour from my house and
[20:47] um
[20:47] spent the entire day at the beach
[20:48] wandering around for no reason
[20:51] um other than to disrupt the software
[20:54] pattern
[20:55] that says um you know if we're not
[20:57] careful we just
[20:58] run into the world of we're just here to
[20:59] pay bills and die and i simply do not
[21:02] believe that we're just here to pay
[21:04] bills and die
[21:06] and you've got to actively disrupt that
[21:08] because you're also living in a culture
[21:09] if you live in western civilization that
[21:11] teaches you that you're just here to pay
[21:12] bills and die
[21:13] um and that is that is also unnatural
[21:16] and
[21:16] untrue can i ask i think probably
[21:20] what comes to lots of people's minds
[21:21] when you hit when you hear you talking
[21:22] about adventures and dates is
[21:24] now um the world is a different place it
[21:27] has been for
[21:27] quite a few months and some people say
[21:30] that
[21:31] isolation is a sort of an artist's
[21:33] friend and you know that you go on to
[21:35] in in confinement you make your best
[21:37] work but julia i know you talk about
[21:39] this as being art and creativity as
[21:41] being a collective experience it's
[21:43] tribal
[21:44] and much of it is as you've just been
[21:45] saying about going out and experiencing
[21:47] and filling up your
[21:48] well so i just wonder from both of you
[21:50] from julia how
[21:52] this translates to now and to the time
[21:54] we're going through and then you know
[21:56] liz i'm wondering
[21:57] how this has affected your creativity
[22:00] personally the last few months
[22:03] well i want to say that colbit has been
[22:06] good for creativity for me i have
[22:10] finished uh written a play and i have
[22:14] finished on page 190 of a handwritten
[22:19] book
[22:20] and what i found was
[22:24] artist dates were supposed to be outside
[22:26] the house and now suddenly we're saying
[22:28] oh don't go out so what can you do
[22:32] in your house that's fun and it turns
[22:35] out that there's all sorts of things you
[22:37] can do
[22:39] you can take a bubble bath you can make
[22:42] a pot of homemade soup
[22:44] you can bake a pie you can listen to a
[22:47] piece of music that you never listen to
[22:50] you can put on some drum music and dance
[22:53] for five minutes
[22:54] uh and so
[22:58] covet is actually a challenge
[23:02] to find things in your personal
[23:04] environment
[23:06] that are festive and i think what
[23:09] happens
[23:10] is that we suddenly start realizing
[23:14] oh i i'm having commuter mind
[23:17] in my own house i need to shake it up
[23:21] and we we do shake it up and i want to
[23:24] say
[23:25] uh that when i first started doing
[23:28] morning pages
[23:30] i was told i needed to believe in
[23:32] something
[23:33] uh and i said you don't understand 16
[23:36] years of catholic education
[23:38] greased slide to agnosticism
[23:42] and they said well you must believe in
[23:44] something
[23:45] and i thought about it and i thought i
[23:48] believe in a line from dylan thomas
[23:51] the force that through the green fuse
[23:53] drives the flower
[23:55] that creative energy and particularly
[24:00] during this covet lockdown period
[24:03] we need to tap into that creative energy
[24:07] and sort of let it flow through us
[24:12] liz how how have you found the the last
[24:14] you know few months have
[24:16] affected your creativity whether for
[24:17] good or bad or whether you have tips for
[24:20] sort of dealing with it
[24:21] with the new age well there's there's
[24:24] one piece of it that i found kind of
[24:26] funny and i say this
[24:28] i'm loved with loving teasing
[24:31] but for years and years and years and
[24:32] years as i have traveled around i've
[24:34] heard people say
[24:35] so much that they wish they could do
[24:37] what i did um
[24:39] which is stop the world and go on a
[24:41] spiritual journey
[24:43] and that they wish they could go to an
[24:45] ashram in india
[24:46] and meditate all day and i'm like well
[24:52] what the world looks like right now my
[24:55] friends
[24:55] is not that different from what it's
[24:57] like to go to india to an ashram and
[24:59] meditate all day you essentially sit in
[25:01] a room
[25:02] with nothing happening and just sit in
[25:05] it like that's what i did in india for
[25:07] four and a half months um
[25:08] in that ashram was to get up before dawn
[25:10] every day and hours
[25:11] and hours and hours a day of doing
[25:13] absolutely nothing
[25:15] and the emotions that i see stirred up
[25:18] in people during the cobit lockdown
[25:20] are exactly the same as what i went
[25:22] through in those first months of
[25:23] meditation
[25:24] rage boredom anger frustration desire
[25:29] dreaming of food dreaming of sex
[25:31] dreaming up like anything to get out of
[25:33] here you know
[25:34] um and and so i i kind of watch it and i
[25:37] smile because i think i know where you
[25:38] guys are
[25:39] at i i i in the beginning of my
[25:42] lockdown and my meditative practice i
[25:45] also experienced that
[25:46] stay with it there's something in us um
[25:49] [Music]
[25:52] i want to live my life in harmony with
[25:54] what nature is creating
[25:56] and what nature seems to be suggesting
[25:58] to us right now
[25:59] is stop um and so instead of me giving
[26:03] people suggestions about
[26:05] how to push against that and how to fill
[26:08] up your day with activity and how to
[26:10] find
[26:10] ways to consume even though all the
[26:11] stores are closed and how to find ways
[26:13] to socialize even though you can't see
[26:14] people
[26:15] you know i see this resistance as very
[26:17] human that's going
[26:18] exactly against what every single
[26:20] apparent signal in the universe is
[26:22] saying right now in the natural world is
[26:23] saying
[26:24] hey you guys stop
[26:28] stop that's enough now go to your room
[26:31] and think about what you've done
[26:34] and um you know i hear a lot of people
[26:36] saying that
[26:38] cobot is so hard because humans are a
[26:39] social animal
[26:41] and that's true we we undoubtedly are
[26:43] but that's not the only thing we are
[26:44] we're also a spiritual animal
[26:46] and every spiritual tradition in the
[26:48] entire history of the world
[26:49] suggests that at some point in your life
[26:51] it would be to your benefit to stop
[26:53] and to get very still so for me what my
[26:56] creativity has looked like
[26:57] over the last um six months has not been
[27:00] about
[27:01] making work i actually had just finished
[27:03] a book in january so i was kind of like
[27:04] my well was empty as julia would say
[27:07] um but has been about deepening my
[27:10] meditation
[27:11] deepening my silence deepening my
[27:13] solitude deepening my isolation
[27:15] playing with that playing with the
[27:18] reality of the world that's saying you
[27:19] can't do anything else right now
[27:21] and i can either fight that and get very
[27:23] sick and stressed and ill
[27:25] and self-pitying or i can be
[27:28] a really a human who dances with fate
[27:30] and i can say
[27:31] okay cool i guess this is my i'm doing
[27:33] my meditation retreat
[27:36] um so for me it's just been deepening
[27:38] spiritual practices
[27:39] um and it's been wonderful and i've i've
[27:41] never in my life spent as much time
[27:43] alone as i've spent in the last six
[27:44] months and it's been
[27:46] um deeply healing and and and really
[27:50] nourishing i feel very full and fed just
[27:53] with my own company at the moment
[27:55] and i mean that julia i'm sure this
[27:58] reminds me of the
[27:59] part in your book where you you say you
[28:02] advocate
[28:02] um reading deprivation and
[28:05] i mean i read that going okay so you
[28:08] call reading and books can be a bit of a
[28:10] pollutant because they're filling your
[28:12] head full of thoughts
[28:13] now we live in a world where that's the
[28:16] last of our books are the last of our
[28:18] problems we have a certain thing
[28:20] it looks like that that just fills our
[28:22] thoughts
[28:23] every day and i'm wondering how you know
[28:25] how important it is just to switch
[28:27] all of that off and how we can do that
[28:29] now you know with
[28:30] with phones we're bombarded now by what
[28:33] you would call pollutants and as i say
[28:35] books feel like a
[28:36] a peaceful luxury in comparison
[28:41] so your question is do we need to switch
[28:44] it all off as liz says she has done for
[28:46] that you know for creativity to flow and
[28:48] flourish would you advocate we switch it
[28:50] all off
[28:50] from time to time
[28:54] i i think what we're going through right
[28:56] now is
[28:57] a situation where it's been switched off
[29:00] for us
[29:02] we haven't had much of a vote
[29:07] and i know i was
[29:11] in the first part of the lockdown
[29:15] i found myself doing nothing
[29:18] and thinking oh
[29:21] this is novel and then i thought
[29:25] well julia you're supposed to be the
[29:27] queen of creativity
[29:30] surely you should be doing something so
[29:33] i called a girlfriend of mine a
[29:35] famous singer named judy collins
[29:38] and i called up judy and said
[29:41] what are you doing and judy said oh
[29:45] i'm writing a coffee table book i'm
[29:47] writing a longer book
[29:48] i'm putting that together songs i'm
[29:51] practicing the piano i'm painting
[29:53] and i was exhausted just listening to
[29:56] her
[29:57] and i found myself thinking well she
[30:00] should be who they're calling the queen
[30:02] of creativity
[30:04] and so we went on for a little while
[30:06] longer
[30:07] and i was writing guidance which it
[30:10] sounds like
[30:12] is something that liz does too
[30:15] where you write lj for little julie
[30:19] can i have guidance about x
[30:22] i and i wrote can i have guidance about
[30:24] x
[30:26] and i heard you're ready to start a new
[30:29] project
[30:31] start with birds and i thought
[30:35] birds but i
[30:38] took out a journal numbered the page
[30:42] number one
[30:44] and thought about birds and said
[30:47] aren't they lovely and that was the
[30:50] first line of a play
[30:52] uh and it gave me something
[30:57] happy to do in my isolation
[31:02] so every day i would say i don't know
[31:05] what the scene's supposed to be
[31:07] i'm panicking i don't know what comes
[31:10] next and the guidance would be
[31:13] sweetheart
[31:15] you don't need to know what comes next
[31:19] and i would keep writing so i that that
[31:22] brings me so nicely to one of the parts
[31:24] that
[31:24] is so important and i was lucky enough
[31:26] to talk to you liz i think a year ago
[31:28] two years ago and one of the things that
[31:30] you said about we talked about
[31:32] perfectionism which both julian and liz
[31:35] you both write very persuasively
[31:37] perfectionism
[31:38] is not a good thing julia you say
[31:41] it's not a quest for the best it is a
[31:43] pursuit for the very worst in ourselves
[31:46] tells us nothing we do will ever be good
[31:48] enough
[31:49] and liz you said when we spoke that i
[31:51] think perfectionism was
[31:53] fear dressed up in a mink coat and heels
[31:56] um so liz we'll start with you and i'd
[31:59] love to come back to you julia but
[32:00] why is perfectionism such a such an
[32:03] enemy of creativity really
[32:06] well it tends to kill things before they
[32:08] even begin um
[32:09] and and the way the reason it's so
[32:11] insidious is that it
[32:13] it disguises itself as an attribute so
[32:16] if you're on a on a job interview for
[32:19] instance and they ask you
[32:20] um what are your worst qualities we all
[32:22] know that the answer that you're
[32:23] supposed to give
[32:24] is that you're a perfectionist if
[32:25] anything i care too much you know
[32:27] because what you're signaling to
[32:29] your prospective boss is is what a hard
[32:31] worker you are
[32:32] and how you don't you won't settle for
[32:34] anything less than the best as julia has
[32:36] said
[32:36] um and it's just it's simply a lie i
[32:39] think perfectionism has
[32:41] killed more art projects than any
[32:43] dictator
[32:44] um any dictator uh or regime or
[32:47] censorship could ever have done you know
[32:49] it's the dictator within it's the tyrant
[32:51] who lives within
[32:52] who um who tells you that before you've
[32:54] even started that
[32:55] that it's not going to be good enough um
[32:58] and and for me
[32:59] a really big breakthrough was when i was
[33:01] working on my first novel and it wasn't
[33:03] good and and
[33:04] julia i've heard you say that one of the
[33:06] the dangers of a budding artist
[33:08] is comparing your work as the new artist
[33:11] to the work of
[33:11] masters and just how how vicious and
[33:14] cruel
[33:15] that comparison can be and and
[33:18] you know we have good taste what's what
[33:20] makes us want to become artists is that
[33:22] we know what good things are so when we
[33:23] start making them we can tell that they
[33:24] are good
[33:26] and and that's what stops you um but
[33:28] then how are you ever supposed to become
[33:30] a master
[33:31] and so i um when i was working on my
[33:34] first novel i
[33:35] how about halfway through i just i
[33:37] really started to lose heart for it
[33:38] because i could see that it was just so
[33:40] sub it was so sub perfect um
[33:43] and and and so far from what i imagined
[33:46] it to be in my head
[33:47] but i remember getting very stubborn and
[33:50] this is the thing about art is that
[33:51] there's a stubbornness
[33:52] to it that pushes back against
[33:54] perfectionism
[33:55] and and i got very stubborn one day and
[33:57] i stood up from my desk and i said aloud
[34:00] to the universe itself to
[34:02] my guides um i said i never promised you
[34:05] i would be a great writer i just thought
[34:07] i would be a writer
[34:08] i just thought i would be a writer and
[34:10] i'm not going to go to my death with 50
[34:12] pages of an unfinished novel in my desk
[34:14] so if people don't like it they can
[34:16] write their own you know
[34:19] and they won't they mostly won't because
[34:21] it's really hard to do
[34:22] so this isn't going to be good but it's
[34:24] going to be done
[34:25] um and and that is that the stubbornness
[34:28] that i think is
[34:29] is required to to push past the
[34:31] perfectionism and
[34:32] the expression that my mother taught me
[34:34] that done is better than good
[34:35] has gotten me through more projects than
[34:37] you could possibly imagine
[34:40] so i want to say that my inner
[34:43] perfectionist
[34:44] my sensor is somebody that i call
[34:48] nigel and
[34:51] nigel is a gay british interior
[34:53] decorator
[34:56] nothing that i do ever will measure up
[34:58] to nigel's standards
[35:01] so i when i write uh morning pages
[35:05] nigel will say oh julia you're boring
[35:09] and i've learned to say to nigel thank
[35:12] you for
[35:12] sharing and i think what we're talking
[35:15] about when we're talking about
[35:16] perfectionism
[35:18] is that artists who succeed are people
[35:21] who have learned to move
[35:22] past their perfectionism
[35:25] sometimes people come to study with me
[35:28] and they expect to be taught how to be
[35:31] fearless
[35:32] uh and i say to them no that isn't how
[35:35] it works
[35:37] what we learn to do is to create despite
[35:39] our fear
[35:41] and when you do morning pages you're
[35:44] miniaturizing your nigels
[35:47] and they go from being a big forbidding
[35:51] doomsday voice to being a little squeaky
[35:54] cartoon character
[35:56] who's always negative so um
[36:01] liz do you do you have a nigel or how do
[36:04] you silence your inner critic and i
[36:05] don't know if you if you've given that
[36:07] critical name perhaps you can now
[36:10] it's hard to compete with nigel i mean i
[36:12] think we can all see him
[36:13] you know one of the things is that i've
[36:15] i've learned
[36:16] that my you know once i once i
[36:19] discovered that perfectionism really
[36:20] truly is fear
[36:22] in high heels and a mink coat pretending
[36:24] to be fancy
[36:25] right um it's and you take it down to
[36:27] its base root and all it is is fear and
[36:29] disguise
[36:30] so as soon as i found that out that was
[36:32] a big piece of information to know that
[36:34] what i was hearing was not
[36:35] a a quest for excellence or um that what
[36:39] i was hearing was just
[36:40] terror um it was born of terror that i
[36:42] am not enough that i will
[36:44] never be enough that nothing i can do
[36:46] will ever be enough go back in your hole
[36:47] and die
[36:48] and um and and i now have made friends
[36:51] with my fear in that i recognize it to
[36:54] be the youngest part of me
[36:56] um it's it's it's a real child and
[36:59] so i speak very lovingly to it um i
[37:02] don't try to kick it out i don't try to
[37:04] throw it away i don't try to tell it to
[37:06] go to hell i see my
[37:08] my perfectionism as a baby in disguise
[37:11] a very frightened baby and so i i just
[37:14] i just talk to it and i let it speak um
[37:16] one of the things i do in my journal
[37:18] is when i feel fear i let my fear have a
[37:20] voice um
[37:22] so i say would you like would you like a
[37:24] few minutes
[37:25] to share with the rest of us what you're
[37:27] going through and then the fear is
[37:28] allowed to say what it's what it's
[37:30] feeling
[37:31] and and i listen to it with a great deal
[37:33] of respect um
[37:34] you know i never mock it i never yell at
[37:36] it and i just let it speak i think like
[37:38] all of us all at once is its voice to be
[37:40] heard
[37:40] and then once it's spoken then i say
[37:43] thank you
[37:44] i hear that i understand i can
[37:46] completely see why you would feel that
[37:47] way
[37:48] would you mind if we let wisdom speak
[37:49] now and
[37:51] um and can you just can you take a seat
[37:54] for a minute and we're going to bring
[37:55] wisdom in
[37:56] and wisdom what do you have to say about
[37:58] this and and we all have
[38:00] really deep reserves of both we all have
[38:03] really deep reserves of fear but we also
[38:05] all have very deep
[38:06] and oftentimes surprising reserves of
[38:08] wisdom and all you have to do is invite
[38:10] her in
[38:11] and ask her to speak and you'll be
[38:13] you'll be amazed at the beautiful
[38:14] guidance that you're given
[38:17] cute julia it seems that the way to
[38:19] counter as well this
[38:20] idea of perfection is to think of
[38:23] creativity as
[38:24] a process as you say is progress not
[38:26] perfection so
[38:27] you know you can't you say get better
[38:30] and look good at the same time you need
[38:32] to be willing to be a bad artist
[38:34] to get better is is that what your
[38:36] emphasis is
[38:37] is on when you're teaching and when
[38:39] you're trying to think of creativity
[38:40] it's about progress and process
[38:42] not kind of perfection and a successful
[38:44] product
[38:45] as a goal yes i think i want to teach
[38:49] people
[38:51] it's i think one of the big secrets we
[38:54] have a
[38:55] mythology around artists that says that
[38:58] artists are tortured
[39:00] artists are neurotic artists are broke
[39:04] artists are isolated
[39:08] and what we don't say is that it's fun
[39:13] and i think this the secret
[39:17] uh we we have a lot of mythology talking
[39:19] about
[39:20] great art is made from great pain
[39:24] and i think what we need to remember
[39:28] is that great art can be made from great
[39:31] joy
[39:33] and i think
[39:38] i i was interested in big magic
[39:43] you had the long list of fears
[39:46] and they were wonderful and i identified
[39:49] with all of them
[39:52] and i think
[39:53] [Music]
[39:55] when you do the guided writing could i
[39:57] have guidance about
[39:58] x you are asking to access
[40:01] wisdom and i think
[40:06] the voice that speaks to you then
[40:09] is kind calm
[40:12] tolerant encouraging uh and as we say
[40:17] what if it's just my imagination and
[40:19] then we think
[40:20] well then my imagination is a wonderful
[40:23] thing
[40:25] but um julia you mentioned this of
[40:28] mythologies and
[40:29] misconceptions which i think the whole
[40:31] book is about countering lots of the
[40:33] misconceptions about what
[40:34] artists are and one of the things is a
[40:37] judgment on artists for trying to make a
[40:39] living
[40:40] you know out of your art it's meant to
[40:41] be a hobby it's meant to be
[40:43] a side a side hustle why do you think
[40:46] we do judge people so much for that i
[40:48] mean people feel perhaps that they can't
[40:51] make their creativity into their life
[40:53] and their work because
[40:55] you know they they have reasons it's not
[40:57] financially viable or or as you say in
[40:59] the book perhaps they're too
[41:00] old so what did tell me
[41:04] your how how do you why does society
[41:08] have these misconceptions about artists
[41:10] and how are you trying to kind of
[41:12] dismantle them through through the
[41:14] artist's way
[41:16] well i i think the artist's way was a
[41:19] temper tantrum
[41:21] it had made a movie it got a wonderful
[41:24] review in london
[41:26] they said this woman is not an old
[41:28] coward but she is
[41:29] funny and i was delighted
[41:33] but in america because the sound had
[41:36] been stolen and the film had to be
[41:38] looped
[41:39] we we couldn't bring the film out
[41:42] in america and i found myself
[41:46] saying well it was worth it
[41:50] anyway to have spent two years
[41:53] making a feature film just to be able to
[41:55] say
[41:56] as liz said before it's done
[41:59] by god i did it
[42:03] and i think
[42:06] i had a temper tantrum
[42:10] when i found my film
[42:13] not being received in america and
[42:16] i said there has to be something good
[42:19] about
[42:19] sheer process
[42:23] so i i believe in process
[42:26] i've written many different forms i've
[42:29] written poetry
[42:31] musicals novels
[42:36] non-fiction spirituality prayer books
[42:39] and i think that they've all been
[42:41] written
[42:42] out of sort of taking an internal dare
[42:46] of oh you don't think you can do this
[42:51] well why don't you try
[42:55] it's all about risk it comes back to
[42:57] being playful
[42:58] willing to take risks and just before i
[43:01] go into um
[43:02] questions from the audience which
[43:03] reluctantly i'm going to have to do and
[43:04] that they're they're
[43:05] mounting up i can see them but i i one
[43:08] of the things that comes through
[43:09] in in the aspen i'm sure liz you will
[43:11] sort of be able to counter this or
[43:13] relate to this is the idea that
[43:15] choosing creativity uh as your as your
[43:17] career
[43:18] as your life is is seen as selfish by
[43:21] yourself and by others perhaps
[43:23] and i'm just wondering you know um
[43:25] whether you
[43:26] have sort of struggled with that the
[43:28] idea that outside you know feel people
[43:30] think that it's
[43:31] selfish of you to devote yourself to
[43:34] your creative pursuits
[43:35] um julia would say in fact the
[43:38] selflessness of it
[43:39] is that you then become a bridge again a
[43:41] different type of bridge
[43:42] and you know others can see what you're
[43:44] doing and they can cross from their
[43:46] self-doubt into self-expression
[43:48] through your through your example
[43:52] well it's it's it's the oldest
[43:56] recognizable human impulse is to make
[43:58] art it's in fact
[44:00] in most anthropological circles where
[44:02] they define when the modern human began
[44:05] um you can tell that some evolution of
[44:08] the mind occurred because now we're
[44:10] making art
[44:11] um and and my definition of art is
[44:13] making something more beautiful than it
[44:15] needs to be
[44:16] for no reason um you know and
[44:19] and that's when you start to see um you
[44:21] know
[44:22] the difference between the example that
[44:24] i like to give is my
[44:26] my grandparents who were depression era
[44:29] farmers in the 1930s dust bowl in
[44:31] minnesota
[44:32] scandinavian immigrants who were dairy
[44:34] farmers in northern minnesota you cannot
[44:36] come up with people less airy fairy than
[44:38] that
[44:38] you know like no nonsense they don't
[44:41] even like
[44:42] color they don't even like spices i mean
[44:44] these are these are
[44:45] hardened swedes fighting for their lives
[44:48] on the prairies
[44:49] um the last people in the world who
[44:50] would have considered themselves to be
[44:52] artists
[44:52] my grandmother made the most beautiful
[44:54] quilts that you could ever imagine
[44:56] and in in one regard it was a very
[44:59] pragmatic
[44:59] thing for her to do because she had
[45:01] seven children and no money and
[45:03] winters were cold and they needed quilts
[45:05] and it was a good way to use leftover
[45:07] bits of material because she was frugal
[45:09] those quilts did not need to be as
[45:11] beautiful as they were
[45:12] they did not there was there is no
[45:15] rational or pragmatic explanation for
[45:17] why they were as beautiful as they were
[45:19] why she put the amount of time into it
[45:21] it's not like she had a whole bunch of
[45:22] free time
[45:23] raising seven kids on a farm it was a
[45:26] priority for her that she probably would
[45:28] not would not have even been able to
[45:30] explain and my grandfather as well made
[45:32] beautiful woodworking like they
[45:34] before the age of mass media everybody
[45:37] made art
[45:38] everybody it's what it's just what you
[45:40] did with your hands and
[45:42] and you did it because it pleased you
[45:44] and you did it because it settled you
[45:46] and you did it because it connected you
[45:48] to stillness and
[45:49] you did it because it made your mind
[45:51] pleased to look at it
[45:53] so if we've lost something if we've
[45:56] created a world where you can only gauge
[45:58] whether or not something is worth doing
[46:00] by how many units of currency
[46:02] it produces um because that certainly
[46:05] wasn't why my grandmother was making
[46:06] quilts that
[46:07] to this day her descendants frame and
[46:09] hang on walls as art because they were
[46:11] that beautiful
[46:15] julia just just my my last thought on
[46:16] that is we've lost something if people
[46:18] do that but also
[46:19] it's it's about people trying to get out
[46:22] of making art their life
[46:24] making creativity their life would use
[46:26] various
[46:27] reasons like perhaps they say it's not
[46:30] their economic and financial reality and
[46:33] i know you have
[46:33] answers to that in in the book people
[46:35] can be listening saying
[46:37] i want to spend my my whole all my hours
[46:39] of my day
[46:40] devoting myself to my creativity but i
[46:42] can't because
[46:43] i can't make enough money that way
[46:47] well i think one of the things we don't
[46:49] talk about
[46:51] is that if you do something you love
[46:54] you tend to make money
[46:58] and um i think uh when we pre
[47:01] when we pursue uh a craft
[47:05] when we write nine novels uh what we are
[47:08] doing uh is that we are inviting the
[47:12] universe
[47:13] to give us a pat on the back uh
[47:16] and it does and i think
[47:21] that there's
[47:24] an optimistic benevolent world
[47:28] that we have been trained to ignore
[47:32] uh and when we start listening
[47:35] to that younger inner scamp of the self
[47:41] we begin to find oh
[47:45] maybe i could make a shekel or two at
[47:48] this
[47:50] and we do liz just before i go to the
[47:54] audience i'd love to hear your thoughts
[47:55] on well
[47:55] yeah i want to jump in with one thing
[47:57] here you can see me twitching in my seat
[47:59] when i was just beginning to write big
[48:00] magic i put a survey out on facebook
[48:04] um to hundreds of thousands of people
[48:06] and i said
[48:07] um what is the number one obstacle to
[48:10] you living a more creative life
[48:12] and 95 of the answers were the same
[48:15] which was i don't have time
[48:19] so um you didn't burst out laughing so
[48:21] i'm going to repeat it to see if you can
[48:22] hear the absurdity
[48:23] i put out a survey on social media
[48:26] asking people what the number one
[48:30] obstacle to them having a more creative
[48:31] life was and hundreds of thousands of
[48:33] people who were at that moment
[48:35] sitting staring at their phone on
[48:36] facebook said i don't have any free time
[48:40] so i just want to point out like part of
[48:42] the discipline
[48:43] is getting honest and getting i would
[48:45] use the word sober
[48:47] about where your time is actually going
[48:51] and i would very you know really
[48:53] challenge this um
[48:54] i mean whenever people write to me and
[48:56] say i wish i could be more creative and
[48:58] i don't have time i always want to say
[48:59] do not make me go and look at your page
[49:01] and see what you've been up to because i
[49:03] will and i will call you out on it
[49:05] do not make me go into your phone and
[49:06] check your usage to see how many hours
[49:08] you have spent on instagram and facebook
[49:10] this week
[49:11] i will do it how what's your favorite
[49:12] television show
[49:14] um how many hours have you spent
[49:15] watching it how where are you
[49:17] where are you actually putting your
[49:20] hours um
[49:20] and i think i don't have enough time is
[49:22] also fear
[49:24] in disguise um and and i don't believe
[49:27] it
[49:28] i'll make an exception if you're um a
[49:30] working mother during covid and you have
[49:31] young children at home under the age of
[49:33] five your excuse
[49:34] [Laughter]
[49:36] you just i think i don't know people
[49:38] going to you yeah yeah i'll say
[49:40] i'll send babysitters over to your house
[49:42] right now but no i think i think
[49:44] you have to get i think you just have to
[49:45] get really brutally and even there my
[49:47] friend glennon doyle who's got the
[49:48] number one book in america right now
[49:50] um started writing when she was as a mom
[49:53] with with three young kids and she
[49:55] had this realization that all she had to
[49:57] do in order to become a writer was to
[49:59] stop
[49:59] watching tv and that was such a hard
[50:02] thing for her to give up because tv was
[50:03] the finish line at the end of the hard
[50:05] day
[50:05] it's essentially like a visual glass of
[50:07] wine you can sit down and zone out
[50:09] but if she stopped watching tv and went
[50:12] to bed at the same time her kids went to
[50:14] bed so her kids went to bed at 8 30 she
[50:16] went to bed at 8 30. she set the alarm
[50:18] for 4 30
[50:19] got up and wrote for an hour and a half
[50:21] before her children woke up that's how
[50:22] she started writing
[50:24] so i mean there are examples out there
[50:26] people who just got very rigorous and
[50:27] very sober and very honest
[50:29] about where their where their actual
[50:31] time was going
[50:33] so i i am here to call everybody out on
[50:35] that and you have to call yourself out
[50:36] on it you know um i
[50:37] i actually can't go and see how much
[50:39] time you've been spending on social
[50:40] media but you can and and it might be
[50:42] helpful for you to see that
[50:44] it's horrifying for me when i look at
[50:45] how much time i spend and i do it i look
[50:47] at it and i'm like
[50:48] god there's hours that i'll never have
[50:51] back
[50:52] i agree those apps and you can see how
[50:54] long at the end of each day you've been
[50:56] on and then i try
[50:56] then you i try and punish myself by
[50:58] going off the whole next day and then it
[51:00] just goes up and down like a yoga
[51:02] and thank you both so much i'm going to
[51:04] go to the audience questions but julia i
[51:05] know you're nodding at that because of
[51:06] course in the artist's way it's very
[51:08] much the message that
[51:09] those excuses about time and age and
[51:12] money are all really fear and
[51:14] and when you think about it differently
[51:16] you can put them all aside and just put
[51:18] a pin in them saying that's fear
[51:19] i can overcome that in various ways but
[51:22] there are so many questions
[51:24] going over 50 so i'm sorry if i don't
[51:26] get to it um
[51:29] someone asks and i'd love to hear both
[51:31] both of your answers on this
[51:32] how do you face that i'm not good enough
[51:34] fear how do you move
[51:35] past it when i'm wrestling with my work
[51:38] the question of
[51:39] what's the point i'm sure this is
[51:40] relevant to so many people
[51:42] is always present julia do you want to
[51:44] answer that and then liz
[51:47] well this is where i think artists dates
[51:50] come in
[51:51] i think when we go on an artist's date
[51:54] or when we
[51:55] do an artist date within our confines of
[51:58] our own home
[51:59] what happens is we have
[52:03] an inkling or a hunch
[52:06] that maybe we're enough
[52:09] and the idea that maybe we're enough
[52:13] uh is the ammunition that you use
[52:17] to fight with i'm not good enough
[52:20] i recently i've published 40 books
[52:23] that's a lot of books
[52:25] it's been about a book a year since i
[52:27] was 30.
[52:29] and what happens is that
[52:35] i find myself
[52:38] i was teaching a writing workshop about
[52:42] a month ago
[52:43] and i realized that i had what i call
[52:46] the imposter syndrome
[52:48] that there i was 40 books published
[52:52] and i was still saying i don't know if
[52:54] i'm a real writer
[52:59] so i think uh i think the answer to
[53:03] am i a real writer is well sweetie
[53:06] did you write today and if you wrote
[53:09] today maybe you're a real writer and i
[53:12] want to
[53:12] say i have a girlfriend jennifer a
[53:15] wonderful actress
[53:18] and she says we all have 20 minutes
[53:22] and that if you give 20 minutes to your
[53:25] art form
[53:26] you will succeed
[53:31] liz do you do you have anything to add
[53:33] to the question about
[53:35] you know um that last question that i
[53:37] read out
[53:38] about i just want everybody to really
[53:41] take in what you just heard
[53:43] which is julia cameron saying that she
[53:46] had imposter syndrome for teaching a
[53:47] creativity workshop
[53:49] so if you so just like next time you
[53:51] have imposter syndrome i want you to
[53:52] just remember
[53:53] that moment that we were all just
[53:55] privileged to see to to show us that
[53:57] it's not special to you um it's really
[54:01] not special to you it's actually just a
[54:03] part of the process that happens to
[54:05] as we've just seen quite literally
[54:07] everybody and um and
[54:09] the thing that i combat it with or when
[54:11] people say to me i'm going to go back to
[54:12] the what's the point
[54:13] question um so it's not what you think
[54:17] that's all i know the point of whatever
[54:18] you create is not what you think it's
[54:20] going to be you you have no way of
[54:21] knowing
[54:22] in advance what if anything the point
[54:24] will be i'm also a big fan of doing
[54:25] things for no point at all
[54:27] um but but i think that um what i can
[54:30] promise you
[54:31] anybody uh and i always say this to
[54:33] because i mostly speak to people who who
[54:35] want to be writing
[54:36] um i cannot promise you that that your
[54:39] book will be good
[54:40] um that it will be seen as good i cannot
[54:42] promise you that you will find
[54:44] an agent i mean we're all adults here so
[54:46] i i like to be honest with people i
[54:48] can't promise you that you'll get
[54:49] published i can't promise you that if
[54:50] you'll get published you'll get reviewed
[54:51] i can't promise you that if you get
[54:53] reviewed you'll be purchased
[54:54] um i can't promise you that that any of
[54:57] that will happen but i can
[54:58] there's one sacred promise that i can
[55:00] make for you and that is that
[55:02] you will know so much more about
[55:04] yourself
[55:05] and about life and about the world at
[55:07] the end of that project than you knew at
[55:09] the beginning
[55:10] promise and that to me seems
[55:13] entirely a good enough reason to do
[55:16] something just out of the curiosity
[55:18] aren't you curious to see who you'll be
[55:20] on the other side of that
[55:21] and and that alone i think is is reason
[55:24] to to create
[55:25] absolutely anything that you want
[55:28] there's another question here that i i
[55:30] love which says could you both
[55:32] speak about the courage to be weird and
[55:34] new
[55:35] and different and the willingness to
[55:36] lose some old stuff to honor the new and
[55:39] fresh stream of creativity and guidance
[55:42] um perhaps julia and then and then liz
[55:45] if you could
[55:45] ask that i know it's a big theme of the
[55:47] artist's way to
[55:49] lose the old and not be afraid to be new
[55:51] and different
[55:53] this is where i'm a fanatic
[55:58] i make coffee the night before i put it
[56:01] in the refrigerator
[56:03] when i get up in the morning i pad to
[56:05] the kitchen i open the refrigerator i
[56:07] pour
[56:07] iced coffee and i go to the page
[56:11] and what happens on the page
[56:15] is that i'm led somewhere further
[56:19] uh and when i'm led somewhere further
[56:23] i may walk and dig my heels in and say
[56:27] oh i can't do that but there's this tiny
[56:30] little voice that says
[56:32] maybe you can uh and
[56:36] so as you write your morning pages
[56:39] uh and then i have another tool that i
[56:42] like which is take a 20-minute walk
[56:45] and do that a couple times each week and
[56:48] that what happens
[56:50] uh is that you begin to have a new
[56:53] definition of yourself
[56:56] you're the person who walked isn't that
[56:59] wonderful
[57:00] you're the person who took an art estate
[57:03] isn't that wonderful
[57:05] and when you do these things
[57:08] which are weird
[57:12] what happens is you start to have a new
[57:14] definition of yourself as
[57:16] daring and i i think
[57:19] that working with my tool kit
[57:23] brings you to a sense of oh
[57:27] i'm actually rather brave rather
[57:30] weird rather lovely
[57:33] i i think i'll try them again
[57:38] um liz do you have anything to feed into
[57:41] that sort of that
[57:42] bravery and courage to be weird and new
[57:44] and different and
[57:45] and sort of shed some of the old stuff
[57:47] how that feels and how you do that
[57:49] well i'm just coming to you as a 51 year
[57:52] old woman
[57:52] whose life does not look even remotely
[57:56] like what i had planned when i was a 21
[57:59] year old woman
[58:00] um i really had a pretty narrow view
[58:04] at that point and what a woman's life
[58:06] should be and what a woman's life should
[58:07] look like
[58:08] um i am twice divorced
[58:12] so obviously things didn't go as planned
[58:14] um i consider myself to be a widow
[58:16] because the love of my life my partner
[58:18] reya passed away two years ago
[58:20] so i'm a choice divorced bisexual widow
[58:22] with no children
[58:25] living by herself in a tiny weird old
[58:29] church
[58:29] in a very rednecky part of new jersey
[58:33] um not at
[58:36] all what the plan was so much better
[58:40] than what the plan was um so so
[58:43] so much better and i am i have become
[58:46] everything
[58:47] that society teaches girls if you're not
[58:49] careful
[58:50] you might end up being this dreadful
[58:52] terrible thing
[58:53] um a middle-aged woman living alone and
[58:57] and i have become that and i quite
[59:00] literally live in a state of glee
[59:06] do you know what it's so wonderful and i
[59:08] sent a quote
[59:09] from your book it's not actually your
[59:12] you it's robert louis stevenson i sent
[59:13] it to my family today it says to know
[59:15] what you prefer instead of humbly saying
[59:17] amen to what the world tells you you
[59:19] ought to prefer
[59:20] is to have kept your soul alive and i
[59:22] sent that to my family today and said
[59:23] please put this on
[59:25] my gravestone so i think that sounds
[59:27] like a very good
[59:28] a good ending thank you so much liz and
[59:30] i'm really sorry to have gone through
[59:32] the time
[59:33] um so quickly because there's just so
[59:35] much more to hear from you both it's
[59:37] been
[59:37] truly such a pleasure and someone says
[59:40] oh no my laptop
[59:41] quit when liz was talking about
[59:42] spirituality don't worry we'll send
[59:45] a link to everyone who's watching um i
[59:47] think in the morning so that you can
[59:49] you can watch it back again for anything
[59:51] you missed and as i say there is
[59:52] so much more we could cover but thank
[59:54] you both very very much indeed for
[59:56] joining us
[59:57] it's a great honor to have you both
[59:59] thank you hannah thank you liz
[1:00:02] thank you hannah and thank you julia
[1:00:05] hannah it's
[1:00:05] always a delight to see you and julia
[1:00:07] you are everything i ever dreamed thank
[1:00:10] you so much for sharing this time with
[1:00:11] me it's a real honor