Transcript
[0:02] HEY, EVERYBODY. ELIZABETH GILBERT!
[0:05] >> [cheering]
[0:05] [screaming]
[0:06] >> YES, ELIZABETH GILBERT.
[0:09] >> [cheering and applause]
[0:10] >> HELLO. HELLO.
[0:11] >> Did y'all believe this book? Whoa, huh?
[0:14] Wow.
[0:15] I said, "Elizabeth, [music] honey child,
[0:18] >> [laughter]
[0:19] >> what you been doing in there?"
[0:22] >> My 118th book club pick. It was written
[0:25] by the brilliant
[0:28] Elizabeth Gilbert.
[0:31] >> [applause]
[0:33] >> And it's called All the Way to the
[0:36] River.
[0:38] All the Way to the River. It's about
[0:40] love
[0:41] and loss and liberation. And it may
[0:45] shock you with some of its surprising
[0:47] revelations and it's raw honesty, but it
[0:51] will cause you to look deeply into your
[0:53] own psyche, your own consciousness, and
[0:56] examine why you do the things you do and
[0:58] why you've made the choices you've made.
[0:59] That's how you know you've written a
[1:02] Because although it's about you and your
[1:05] life and your life with Rayya, it also
[1:08] causes everybody to think about their
[1:10] own and their crazy-ass choices you
[1:12] might have made [laughter]
[1:15] a- along along the way.
[1:16] >> Oprah, to make everybody think about the
[1:17] crazy-ass choices they made [laughter]
[1:19] along the way.
[1:21] >> Many people have the idea that you have
[1:23] already eaten
[1:25] and prayed
[1:27] and loved your way through your demons.
[1:32] You have you have f- it all figured out.
[1:34] >> Mhm.
[1:35] >> But this book is so revealing and
[1:38] gorgeously written. It's an account of
[1:40] what happened after your second divorce,
[1:44] when you fell in love with your partner,
[1:47] >> Yeah.
[1:47] >> Rayya.
[1:49] >> In 2016, Elizabeth announced to her
[1:52] followers on social media that she was
[1:54] ending her 9-year marriage to the man
[1:56] she met [music] and fell in love with at
[1:57] the end of her best-selling memoir Eat,
[1:59] Pray, Love.
[2:01] Two months later, in another social
[2:03] media post, Elizabeth revealed she was
[2:05] in love with her best friend
[2:06] >> [music]
[2:06] >> of 15 years, Rayya Elias.
[2:10] At the time, Rayya was diagnosed with
[2:12] pancreatic and liver cancer. Doctors
[2:14] told her she had 6 months to live.
[2:16] >> [music]
[2:17] >> In 2017, the couple celebrated with what
[2:20] Elizabeth calls a simple, spontaneous
[2:22] ceremony of love.
[2:24] >> I might not be that long that I'm
[2:26] around.
[2:29] But I'll forever love you.
[2:31] >> Rayya died at the age of 57 [music] in
[2:34] 2018.
[2:36] >> It's so interesting because you talk in
[2:38] the beginning of the book about Rayya
[2:41] coming to visit you on your 54th
[2:42] birthday. Tell us that.
[2:44] >> Okay. Yeah, we'll we'll start with that.
[2:47] Um so, on the morning of my 54th
[2:49] birthday, I woke up and I felt that
[2:51] Rayya was in the room with me.
[2:53] This isn't going to be shocking to a lot
[2:55] of people who've had people that they
[2:56] love die.
[2:57] >> Right.
[2:58] >> I feel some nods in the room happening
[2:59] already.
[3:00] >> Right.
[3:01] >> Sometimes the the line between death and
[3:03] life is very thin. These thin places.
[3:06] And spirit comes through.
[3:07] >> She'd come to you before, though, right?
[3:08] >> to me before. She'd been very deeply
[3:10] present in the immediate aftermath of
[3:12] her death. I felt like we were in
[3:13] constant conversation. I felt like she
[3:14] was living inside my head and the
[3:16] conversation had never ended. And then
[3:18] as the years went by,
[3:20] that that was sort of lost, you know, um
[3:22] and and I couldn't feel her as much. But
[3:25] I I woke up and she was in the room and
[3:27] she was in the room with this very
[3:28] commanding energy. And those of you
[3:29] who've read the book know that Rayya had
[3:31] a very commanding energy. And she was
[3:32] like, "I've got something to tell you
[3:34] and it's extremely important." And I
[3:35] grabbed my journal that's always by my
[3:37] bed and I started to transcribe what I
[3:39] was hearing. And what she was saying was
[3:41] >> Okay, did could you see her? Do you see
[3:43] her?
[3:43] >> can't see her. I can hear her.
[3:45] >> Okay.
[3:45] >> And it's the same, actually, my
[3:46] relationship with God is very similar. I
[3:48] don't see things, but I hear. I hear a
[3:51] voice that I know is God. I heard a
[3:52] voice that I knew was Raya.
[3:53] >> And you knew it was Raya.
[3:54] >> I knew it was Raya. And I I just grabbed
[3:56] this notebook and as trying to keep up
[3:58] with her
[3:59] >> Yeah.
[3:59] >> started writing down, which is the
[4:01] beginning first chapter of the book in
[4:03] which she says to me and at that point
[4:04] she'd been dead for five five and a half
[4:06] six years. Yes. She said, "It's time for
[4:09] you to write this book. It's time for
[4:11] you to tell this story. It's time for
[4:13] you to tell the entire story. Don't hold
[4:15] anything back. Go in her words full punk
[4:18] rock with it.
[4:19] >> punk rock.
[4:19] >> all on the table.
[4:20] >> Uh-huh.
[4:21] >> Don't protect my dignity. Don't protect
[4:22] your dignity. It's time to write
[4:24] >> cuz I don't need dignity. I'm dead.
[4:26] >> I'm dead. I don't need dignity. And she
[4:27] said, "But you don't need it either."
[4:28] >> Yeah.
[4:29] >> And and actually it's going to help
[4:30] people. And and I knew it to be Raya
[4:33] because when Raya was in her right mind,
[4:35] when she was sober and clean, there was
[4:37] nobody who loved the truth more. And
[4:39] there was nobody who was more willing to
[4:41] put the truth out on the table and say,
[4:43] "Let's just put this out on the table so
[4:45] that we can deal with it cuz we can't
[4:47] deal with it unless we see what it is,
[4:48] right?" That was her great talent was
[4:50] for deep truth. And so I started writing
[4:52] the book that day and I didn't want to
[4:54] write the book. I mean there was a
[4:55] reason that six years had passed since
[4:57] her death and I had not written this
[4:58] book despite a lot of people saying
[5:00] >> You should write it.
[5:01] >> you to tell the story the love story
[5:02] about you and Raya." I'm like, "I don't
[5:03] know if you can handle the love story
[5:05] about me and Raya."
[5:05] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[5:06] >> like I like if I'm going to put out
[5:08] there what actually occurred, it's very
[5:10] dark. It doesn't reflect well on either
[5:13] one of us at multiple points and and I
[5:15] also didn't want to relive the trauma.
[5:17] You know, I was like this was the most
[5:19] traumatic thing I ever went through.
[5:20] >> Yeah.
[5:20] >> Talk about that.
[5:21] >> to say considering who you are in the
[5:24] world and the world's impression of who
[5:27] you are in the world, this is the
[5:29] bravest thing I've ever seen.
[5:31] >> Mhm.
[5:31] >> It's just the bravest thing.
[5:33] >> Mhm.
[5:33] >> Because you could have just kept this
[5:35] story to yourself and allowed people to
[5:38] think that you had eaten and prayed and
[5:40] loved and everything was still just
[5:42] perfectly okay.
[5:44] >> Mhm.
[5:44] >> But instead, as I said, you have opened
[5:47] up your soul in such a way. This book is
[5:50] going to free so many people. I think
[5:54] that what Raya had said to you, like
[5:55] write the [ __ ] out of this thing, that
[5:57] you actually did do that and did it in
[6:00] such a way that
[6:03] I I I remember years ago on the Oprah
[6:05] show trying to explain what love
[6:07] addiction was. And it's so hard to
[6:10] explain it to people because
[6:12] our culture tells us that's what we're
[6:14] supposed to be. You're supposed to be in
[6:16] love and you're supposed to give all and
[6:17] you're supposed to do all of that stuff.
[6:19] This audience has read the book and I
[6:20] hear you all devoured it. So, why did
[6:22] you love it, Tawana?
[6:24] >> Hello. Well, I loved the book because
[6:28] I'm the daughter of
[6:30] mother who struggles with the substance
[6:32] use disorder and I think it really
[6:35] impressed upon me the importance of
[6:37] grace and how deserving everyone is,
[6:40] including those who struggle with the
[6:41] substance use disorder, how deserving
[6:43] they are of love, of deep love. And
[6:46] there is a tendency to want to fix it.
[6:49] But I think this just gave some insider
[6:51] information to the depth of emotion and
[6:54] the ups and downs and consequence, but
[6:56] also joy and happiness that we sometimes
[7:00] can't understand because we're so busy
[7:01] trying to to fix.
[7:03] >> To fix it.
[7:04] >> How about you, Cassidy? Where's Cassidy?
[7:06] >> Hi.
[7:06] >> Hi. I I have to say I didn't read books
[7:09] before this and I have never felt so
[7:11] connected to a book as this one. And I
[7:13] just want to say I myself have gone
[7:16] through journeys of addiction and love
[7:17] and
[7:18] grieving a loss right now. And being
[7:20] able to understand really the truth of
[7:23] where I've been and how codependency
[7:24] really has shaped the way of where I'm
[7:26] at in life and how to embrace it, but
[7:29] also it's helped me understand how to
[7:30] put some boundaries in place and to
[7:33] embrace the fact that yes, I
[7:35] understanding my own addictions to love
[7:37] and sex and codependency and being able
[7:39] to see where I'm at today and
[7:41] um with my inner child and showing her
[7:43] what's coming up next is very exciting.
[7:45] So, thank you.
[7:46] >> Thank you. Thank you.
[7:48] >> So, you'd been best friends with Raya
[7:50] for many years. She started out as your
[7:52] hairdresser.
[7:53] >> Yes.
[7:54] >> Uh she was my hairdresser and then
[7:55] became a social friend and then became a
[7:57] neighbor and then became my best friend
[7:59] and then became something I no longer
[8:00] had words for because I didn't know that
[8:03] I was slowly falling in love with her,
[8:05] but I was also slowly giving my power to
[8:07] her. Um I was you know, over time I came
[8:10] >> came to But you wanted to in the
[8:11] beginning.
[8:12] >> Oh, all I've ever wanted to do is give
[8:13] my power to somebody, Oprah.
[8:15] >> Yes.
[8:15] >> You know, all I've ever wanted to do is
[8:17] be like who is who is who's got me?
[8:20] You know, like who do I have to give
[8:22] this to so that they will take care of
[8:23] me completely so that I don't have to do
[8:25] it.
[8:26] >> One of the one of the headings in the
[8:27] book I love is uh will you be my home?
[8:31] >> Yeah.
[8:31] >> Because remember Babe the Pig when he'd
[8:33] go up to all everybody and say, "Will
[8:34] you be my mom? Will you be my mom?" And
[8:36] your will you be my home
[8:38] >> desperate
[8:39] >> is like the desperation
[8:41] >> Yes.
[8:41] >> of Babe the Pig. Will you be my mom?
[8:43] Because you just want somebody to love
[8:46] >> Who's going to take care of me?
[8:48] >> Who's going to take care of me?
[8:48] >> Right? Now, here's the irony which some
[8:50] of you may also recognize in your own
[8:51] lives. Every single person I ever
[8:53] thought was going to take care of me, I
[8:55] ended up taking care of, but only 100%
[8:58] of the time. Right?
[8:59] >> [laughter]
[9:00] >> Every woman in the room is like, "Yes, I
[9:02] know." You know, like you know, I'm
[9:04] looking for like who's the hero who's
[9:06] going to rescue me, right? And then I
[9:07] give myself to them
[9:09] and then I end up having to take care of
[9:11] them and I end up empty because I've now
[9:13] emptied myself into somebody. The I have
[9:16] a my friend Emma who's who's British
[9:17] says, "It's bad maths, Liz. It's bad
[9:20] maths." The maths of of codependency
[9:22] goes like this. I'm going to take all
[9:25] the love and all the resources and
[9:26] everything that I have and everything I
[9:28] am and I'm going to pour it into you
[9:31] and then I'm going to stand outside of
[9:32] you like I'm standing outside a pawn
[9:34] shop begging you to give me some of it
[9:36] back. Right? I'm going to beg you to
[9:38] give me some love. Meanwhile, I've just
[9:41] emptied myself of all that I contain
[9:44] into you, and now I'm going to beg for
[9:46] scraps.
[9:47] And And I've heard it called a
[9:48] crumaholic, too. I'm going to beg for
[9:50] crumbs. I'm going to beg for scraps.
[9:52] Now, that's bad math, right? It's like,
[9:55] what if we cut out the middleman?
[9:57] And you just pour all of that love and
[10:00] resources into yourself, right? But I
[10:02] didn't know how to do that, and I didn't
[10:04] think I was worthy of that. And I was
[10:05] taught by my culture that what you do is
[10:08] you you go out and you know, especially
[10:10] women are taught this.
[10:11] >> Yes.
[10:11] >> You know, you get loved by pouring in,
[10:13] and then you hope that you get some
[10:14] back.
[10:15] >> That's right.
[10:16] >> and and and you give up and give up and
[10:17] sacrifice and sacrifice for this person.
[10:20] >> This is why we write later in the book
[10:21] that women who are married
[10:23] uh end up being unhappier because
[10:28] they've given, given, given, given,
[10:29] given. Where on the other hand, the men
[10:32] who are married are just fine because
[10:34] they're the ones who are being taken
[10:36] care of. They're the ones who everybody
[10:37] is pouring everything into.
[10:39] >> This is called the marriage benefit
[10:40] imbalance. And marriage is a very good
[10:43] deal for men. It's not a good deal for
[10:44] women. I don't know what the statistics
[10:46] are in same-sex marriages cuz I don't
[10:47] think it's been studied. But But the
[10:49] question remains, who's playing the
[10:51] traditional role of the wife in this
[10:52] relationship? Meaning, who's overgiving?
[10:55] Right? Who is overgiving to somebody
[10:57] with the hope that they will maybe give
[10:59] love back to them? And I think the
[11:01] reason that it's so hard that love
[11:04] addiction and sex addiction have not
[11:06] really gotten the prominence that
[11:07] alcohol and substance abuse is is
[11:09] because first of all, it's really
[11:10] working for men.
[11:11] >> [laughter]
[11:11] >> Yeah.
[11:12] >> It's like, it's really working for them,
[11:13] you know? And it And so I think the
[11:15] stories that keep being fed to girls of
[11:18] like, you're going to find your prince
[11:19] and he's going to take care of you, um
[11:21] continually keep pushing girls and women
[11:24] into this dream where the reality is
[11:27] you're probably very likely going to end
[11:29] up taking care of him.
[11:30] >> Yes. Now, you write on page 35,
[11:34] "I've caused tremendous harm to myself
[11:36] and others through my decades of sex and
[11:39] love addiction." Now, we all know that
[11:41] there are amazing manifestations of how
[11:44] this shows up in everybody's life. But
[11:47] for me,
[11:48] that sentence and the passage that
[11:50] follows is the fundamental reason for
[11:52] everything else that follows in this
[11:54] book. And I wanted you to read the text
[11:56] passage for us from page 35. Begins with
[12:00] "There are not a lot of women."
[12:02] >> There are not a lot of women out there
[12:03] who will publicly admit to being sex and
[12:05] love addicts because it sounds pretty
[12:07] gnarly. In fact, it is gnarly. I won't
[12:10] get into salacious details here, but I
[12:12] will say that my addiction manifests as
[12:15] a sincere yet deeply misguided belief
[12:17] that somebody outside of myself will
[12:20] miraculously be able to heal me on the
[12:22] inside, thereby making me feel safe,
[12:25] cherished, and whole at last. In real
[12:28] life terms, this translates as a
[12:29] desperate need to have my existence
[12:31] constantly authenticated and
[12:34] reauthenticated through a romantic
[12:36] partner's touch, eye contact, verbal
[12:38] reassurance, acts of love, or mere
[12:40] physical presence.
[12:42] My desperation to be loved is certainly
[12:44] outsized, and it has caused me to act
[12:46] out in ways that are undeniably insane.
[12:48] Yet I suspect that parts of my story may
[12:50] feel familiar to many of my readers,
[12:52] especially my female readers who, like
[12:54] me, may have been socialized since birth
[12:57] to believe that they did not possess
[12:59] much inherent value, but were estimable
[13:02] only in so far as they were capable of
[13:04] making themselves attractive enough to
[13:05] be chosen.
[13:06] >> Mhm.
[13:07] >> Failing to succeed in this massively
[13:09] important project of proving yourself
[13:11] worthy of being chosen meant that you
[13:12] were a failure, and that nothing else
[13:15] you ever manifested would have much
[13:17] significance in anybody's eyes.
[13:21] >> Wow.
[13:22] >> Yeah.
[13:23] >> You believe that you suffer from what is
[13:25] known as process addiction. So, what is
[13:27] that? which is different than substance
[13:29] addiction, which is what Raya was was
[13:32] >> Right.
[13:32] >> afflicted with.
[13:33] >> So, substance addiction addictions are
[13:35] addictions to chemicals that you take in
[13:37] through alcohol, through drugs, um
[13:40] nicotine, you know, your body becomes
[13:42] dependent upon these substances and and
[13:44] you're physiologically need them, legal,
[13:46] illegal drugs.
[13:48] Process addictions are addictions to
[13:49] certain behaviors. Um but what happens
[13:52] is that your brain chemistry actually is
[13:54] changed by these behaviors. And so,
[13:56] people who, like me, may have a very
[13:58] insecure attachment disorder, um or may
[14:01] have had traumatic incidences in their
[14:04] childhood that led them to have a lot of
[14:07] trouble knowing where boundaries are or
[14:10] knowing who to trust or knowing how to
[14:12] find safety. It's been estimated that
[14:14] people with process addictions get
[14:16] approximately 10 times amount of the hit
[14:19] off of various activities that other
[14:20] people do. So, gambling is a process
[14:22] addiction, shopping,
[14:23] spending money, um overeating is a
[14:26] process addiction, sex and intimacy and
[14:29] deep need for connection is a process
[14:31] addiction. So, where you a normal
[14:34] person, whatever that is, might feel
[14:36] some warmth and some tenderness when you
[14:38] have physical touch with somebody, I get
[14:40] high off it. Like I get a dump of
[14:42] oxytocin into my blood system that is so
[14:44] high that my my system then
[14:47] kind of acclimates to that and then it
[14:49] needs it again.
[14:51] Um and then it needs it again and then
[14:52] it needs, just like any addiction, it
[14:54] needs a higher and higher dose.
[14:55] >> by your need to be loved is so out
[14:57] sized, so out sized? And falling in love
[15:00] for you is like a drug cuz you said on
[15:02] page 38, "I don't need alcohol and drugs
[15:04] to alter my consciousness that other
[15:07] people might experience pleasurable
[15:09] sensations.
[15:10] I get wasted."
[15:11] >> wasted and I lose my judgement. I lose
[15:14] my dignity.
[15:16] Um and very soon it will end up with me
[15:18] begging.
[15:19] Right? I'm begging like and I need you
[15:21] to look at me the way you used to look
[15:23] at me. I need you to touch me the way
[15:25] you used to touch me. I need to get high
[15:27] off of that and I will do anything to
[15:28] stimulate that. I'll do anything. So, I
[15:31] will give you all my money.
[15:33] Um I'll buy you presents. I'll I'll
[15:36] abandon my responsibilities for you. I
[15:37] will throw my entire life away
[15:39] completely and immediately, right? So
[15:43] quickly, like so quickly. I will
[15:45] disappear like and I'll be looking into
[15:47] your face. What do you need me to be?
[15:49] Who do you need me to be? So that you
[15:51] will give me back what I just gave to
[15:53] you, which is all my power.
[15:55] >> Were you this way in your Were you this
[15:57] way in your relationship with the man
[15:59] you married at the end of Eat, Pray,
[16:01] Love?
[16:01] >> A little bit, but um I I want to be
[16:04] careful not to talk about that much just
[16:06] out of respect to somebody who I still
[16:08] love so dearly. Um but but it didn't get
[16:12] triggered as hard. It it It mostly and
[16:15] more gets triggered by unavailable
[16:16] people. Um and and there's
[16:19] >> [laughter]
[16:21] >> Let the church say
[16:24] The church went amen
[16:26] when they're not available.
[16:27] >> really get high off someone who will
[16:29] probably destroy me, right? Like that's
[16:30] a little bit of a But but but there's a
[16:32] reason for that and I was taught I was
[16:34] taught this when I when I first came
[16:36] into recovery, a very wise older woman
[16:38] said
[16:39] and you can all play this game at home.
[16:41] List five adjectives to describe your
[16:43] childhood.
[16:45] So, I you know, I'll throw out creative,
[16:48] fascinating,
[16:50] cold,
[16:51] difficult, withholding.
[16:55] Now, if I meet somebody
[16:57] who is a description of those five
[17:00] things, that smells like home cooking to
[17:01] me.
[17:03] That's home. There's something in my
[17:05] nervous system that's like, oh, that's
[17:06] home.
[17:07] >> Oh, somebody's withholding, you are
[17:09] going to be drawn to that.
[17:10] >> 100% creative, stimulating, dangerous.
[17:13] Yeah. That's That just feels like home.
[17:16] And I think karmically what it is,
[17:18] to use a word or maybe there's a
[17:20] psychological reason for this.
[17:21] What I'm trying to do is I'm trying to
[17:23] recreate home, but this time it works.
[17:25] >> Yeah.
[17:25] >> Right? So
[17:26] >> This time it's really going to be
[17:27] different.
[17:28] >> This time is the two favorite words of
[17:30] an addict.
[17:32] You know, well this time is going to be
[17:33] different cuz this time Like this time
[17:35] and and what I'm trying to do is I'm
[17:36] trying to control a trauma response.
[17:40] >> Yeah.
[17:40] >> So it's like if I can find somebody to
[17:42] play that out with who is brilliant and
[17:44] creative and dangerous and with
[17:45] >> I'm withholding and scary and exciting.
[17:48] >> Now I as adult I'm like, well my child's
[17:50] self is like, well let's now do this,
[17:52] but this time we're going to figure out
[17:54] a way that they're going to love us.
[17:55] >> But the way
[17:55] >> So then when they do it's like the child
[17:57] is healed. Until they don't.
[17:59] >> Until they don't.
[18:00] >> And then we relive that trauma all over
[18:02] again.
[18:02] >> The reason why all the way to the river
[18:04] was such a shock to me and I'm assuming
[18:07] you all too is cuz we thought you of all
[18:10] people had it all figured out.
[18:14] >> [laughter]
[18:14] >> We thought you had it all figured out.
[18:18] >> And then to come to find out not only
[18:20] did you not have it all figured out
[18:23] >> I didn't have any of IT FIGURED OUT.
[18:24] >> [laughter]
[18:26] >> NO, BUT EVEN WHEN THE OKAY, SO let's
[18:28] talk about this for a moment. Talk about
[18:30] this this when fame hits you like that.
[18:33] >> Mhm.
[18:33] >> Cuz Eat Pray Love was this phenomenon.
[18:36] It really was. And Julia Roberts is
[18:39] playing you in the film and the checks
[18:42] are coming from the book and the movie
[18:44] and all of a sudden you have all of this
[18:46] money. What did that do? The fact that
[18:49] you couldn't receive it and accept it.
[18:52] Tell us the story that you share in the
[18:54] book [laughter]
[18:55] about going down the street giving away
[18:57] your money.
[19:00] >> Okay, so
[19:01] here's what I want to say about Eat Pray
[19:03] Love. I was 34.
[19:05] >> Okay.
[19:05] >> right? But I was precocious, but I did
[19:07] at the end of Eat Pray Love feel that I
[19:09] had healed, that I had landed on a bunch
[19:12] of things, but also look what I did. I
[19:14] left a man for another man.
[19:16] >> Yeah.
[19:16] >> And then I was heartbroken by that, and
[19:18] then I went out in the world and I had a
[19:20] few adventures, and then I met another
[19:21] man.
[19:21] >> Yeah.
[19:22] >> You know, um so when I watch Eat Pray
[19:23] Love now, and I love the movie, and I
[19:25] thought they did be And of course we
[19:26] love Julia.
[19:27] >> Yeah.
[19:27] >> I look at that film and I'm like, look
[19:29] at this woman, it's 2 hours long, she's
[19:31] with three different men.
[19:33] Right?
[19:34] Look what you're doing.
[19:36] >> I love that part about that part.
[19:37] >> Yeah.
[19:38] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[19:39] >> Right?
[19:39] >> Uh-huh.
[19:40] >> The answer that I the best solution I
[19:42] could always come up with was find
[19:44] somebody better so find somebody
[19:45] different. Who's the person who's going
[19:46] to who are you going to take care of me
[19:48] now, right? So so some of the people
[19:51] that I chose for that role in my life
[19:53] were better at it than others. The man
[19:55] who I married was was very good at
[19:56] loving me.
[19:57] >> Mhm.
[19:57] >> Um so so that kept me sort of sedated
[20:00] for a while, but that didn't mean that
[20:02] my central core wound was healed.
[20:05] Right? I was I feel like I was I was
[20:07] being nicely sedated by somebody being
[20:09] very kind and loving. But to you ask
[20:11] your question, the the addiction was
[20:12] always there. An addict is an addict is
[20:14] an addict. Right? The addiction was
[20:16] always there.
[20:16] >> Okay.
[20:17] >> Um and the deep what they call in the
[20:18] rooms the god-sized hole was always
[20:20] there. It's a hole that is so big that
[20:23] it doesn't matter what you put into it,
[20:25] it won't fill it.
[20:26] >> So
[20:27] >> Fame, you can pour fame into it, it's
[20:29] going to go right out the back. You can
[20:30] pour money into it, it's going to go
[20:31] right out the back. You can pour
[20:32] somebody's true love into it, it's going
[20:34] to go right out the back.
[20:35] >> Yeah.
[20:35] >> There's a hole. The only thing that's
[20:37] going to fill it is God.
[20:38] >> Yes.
[20:38] >> The only thing that can fill an infinite
[20:40] hole is infinite source. Right? So we'll
[20:42] get to that later, I presume.
[20:44] >> Yes. Yes.
[20:45] >> but but I suddenly became really rich,
[20:47] and I had such a low sense of self-worth
[20:51] that I was like, well, I this is a
[20:54] karmic accident. I'm not I was never
[20:56] supposed to be somebody who was rich. I
[20:58] was supposed to be a starving artist. I
[21:00] can't even hold this money without
[21:02] feeling deeply uncomfortable with it.
[21:04] It's not mine.
[21:05] Like the feeling I had was it's not
[21:07] mine. It's coming to me, but it's not
[21:09] mine. It's for whoever wants it, which
[21:11] is also how I've always felt about my
[21:12] body.
[21:13] >> Wow.
[21:14] >> It's not mine. It's for whoever wants
[21:16] it. So, the
[21:18] >> So, you opened yourself up to that.
[21:20] >> So, the incident that you are discussing
[21:22] [laughter] is that I walked down the
[21:23] streets of my small town in New Jersey
[21:26] and started just giving money to people.
[21:27] I started walking into local businesses.
[21:29] It was after um 2008 after the stock
[21:31] market crashed and I was like, "Oh,
[21:33] these people need Like when wherever
[21:35] there was a need, I was like, "Oh, they
[21:36] need it." You know, and there is a I
[21:38] believe I'm a deeply generous person.
[21:41] >> But, this was crazy.
[21:42] >> Yeah.
[21:42] >> Like this is crazy. I was walking up to
[21:44] strangers and being like
[21:45] >> person, too, BUT I'M NOT THAT.
[21:47] >> [laughter]
[21:50] >> YOU KNOW, I THINK I THINK responsibility
[21:52] comes with general You have to be able
[21:54] to give money to people who know what to
[21:55] do with that money, and they're going to
[21:57] use that money in a way
[21:58] >> I going to know how to do that?
[22:00] >> Okay, okay. [clears throat]
[22:00] >> Right? How am I going to know how to do
[22:01] that?
[22:02] >> walking down the street and going like
[22:03] >> Whoever, whatever, anybody.
[22:04] >> Anybody
[22:05] >> need any money?
[22:06] >> Who?
[22:06] >> Does anybody need anything from me? You
[22:08] know, and and then Time magazine is
[22:10] like, "We're going to name you as one of
[22:11] the 100 most influential people in the
[22:12] world." And I'm like, "Okay, now
[22:13] everybody needs me." Right? So, I'm just
[22:16] going to show up as the giver because
[22:18] that's part of my Like that's what I'm
[22:20] going to do. I'm going to over give.
[22:22] That's all I know how to do. I'm going
[22:24] to over give of my love, of my heart, of
[22:25] my pocketbook, of my wallet.
[22:26] >> just give people money and you say,
[22:28] "Here, take this." People would be happy
[22:30] about it, but you ended up in lawsuits,
[22:33] you ended up with people being upset
[22:34] that they didn't get anything.
[22:35] >> Yes.
[22:36] >> A stew of resentments and problems and
[22:39] issues and you know, some of those
[22:40] people I'm still friends with, but they
[22:41] were still the people who loved me
[22:43] before I had money.
[22:45] They loved me anyway. I was just
[22:46] throwing money at them because I have a
[22:47] psychosis, right? But, like they were
[22:49] just like they loved me anyway. Some of
[22:51] those people cross the street when they
[22:52] see me coming, you know, because we got
[22:54] into such resentment and difficulty and
[22:56] codependency. One of the my favorite
[22:59] lines of the book is my definitions of
[23:01] codependency and one of them is um the
[23:03] codependent's motto, you you break it,
[23:05] we fix it, right? Um and and so if you
[23:08] give a codependent a ton of money,
[23:11] you know, all I'm going to do is try to
[23:12] use it to fix everything cuz if I can
[23:14] fix the world and make the world okay,
[23:16] then I'll be okay.
[23:17] >> Okay.
[23:18] >> In the same bad math as if I can love
[23:20] you so much, then you'll love me, and
[23:22] then I'll be okay. And meanwhile,
[23:23] someone in here is not getting taken
[23:25] care of at all.
[23:27] >> So let's get to Reya's
[23:29] uh cancer diagnosis and what happened
[23:31] after that. So she's diagnosed with
[23:32] cancer.
[23:33] >> Yeah. So she was diagnosed with terminal
[23:34] pancreatic and liver cancer and given 6
[23:36] months to live. By that point, she was
[23:38] firmly established in my consciousness
[23:40] as the most important person in my life,
[23:42] my ground of being, my foundation. I now
[23:44] see I had made her into my higher power.
[23:47] Um and I've heard addiction described as
[23:49] false worship, right? You make something
[23:51] into your god. You make the alcohol into
[23:53] your god. You make the drug into your
[23:55] god. I made her into my god. So now I'm
[23:57] losing my god. Like it's not just that
[23:59] she's dying and my friend is dying. It's
[24:01] like I won't The feeling I had was I
[24:03] will not survive this. This is a world
[24:05] not living in without Reya, and it I
[24:06] don't know how to take care of myself.
[24:08] She's the one who makes me feel like I'm
[24:10] taken care of. And in the aftermath of
[24:12] that,
[24:14] I finally found a word for what it was
[24:16] that I was feeling for. I was like, "Oh,
[24:18] I'm in love with this person."
[24:20] And and I can't let her and I still see
[24:23] that there was no other way this was
[24:24] going to go given who we were and what
[24:27] the realities of our spirits were.
[24:30] I couldn't let her die
[24:32] without letting her know that you are
[24:34] not just my friend. You are the love of
[24:36] my life.
[24:36] >> Right. And so you told her?
[24:38] >> Yeah, I told my husband first.
[24:40] >> Yes, good.
[24:41] >> Um but I told her and and very quickly
[24:44] my husband and I separated, and I went
[24:47] to be with Reya.
[24:48] >> Had Is she She had moved into your house
[24:50] by that time?
[24:51] >> I had a couple houses, and she was
[24:52] living in one of them.
[24:53] >> Yes, she was living in the church house.
[24:55] >> Yeah.
[24:55] >> Okay. Yeah. So here's here's an
[24:57] interesting thing cuz I thought, you
[24:58] know,
[24:59] so many of us do this. You know, I live
[25:01] by this principle of intention,
[25:03] understanding that whatever you intend
[25:05] is actually going to determine the
[25:07] outcome. So, I love this moment where
[25:09] you've invited her to come and to stay
[25:10] at the house,
[25:12] and you've invited her for 9 months, and
[25:14] then that time is up. You wanted her to
[25:16] continue to stay, so you offer her the
[25:19] opportunity to write her own book. You
[25:21] make her an offer that she cannot
[25:23] refuse.
[25:23] >> Yeah.
[25:24] >> Cuz who's going to turn down that? And
[25:25] if you stay here, you can just live
[25:27] here. You can just live here for free.
[25:29] Who's going to turn down that? But, the
[25:31] real reason you were doing it, your real
[25:33] intention was you had a fear of losing
[25:36] her.
[25:36] >> Yeah.
[25:37] >> And that I'm going to hold you to this
[25:40] contract of writing a book, and it's
[25:42] going to look like if you're writing a
[25:43] book, but really it's keeping you in my
[25:45] life because I'm I'm too afraid to lose
[25:47] you.
[25:47] >> And that was when we were just friends.
[25:49] Yes. So, she had come out and lived at
[25:51] this church that I had that I was
[25:52] offering to people to use as an artist
[25:54] residency for 9 months.
[25:56] And at the end of that 9 months, I had
[25:57] realized who she was.
[25:59] And what it did to my nervous system
[26:02] when she walked in to the room was that
[26:04] I calmed down when Reya was there.
[26:06] I felt this absence of something that
[26:09] I'd felt my whole life, which was this
[26:11] low-grade terror that I've always had of
[26:13] everyone in the room. Cuz Reya handled
[26:15] people so well that when she came into
[26:17] the room, I felt deeply safe. And that
[26:19] sense of safety that I could not provide
[26:21] for myself, that she was able to
[26:23] provide, made me completely dependent on
[26:26] her. And what I did when I said, "Why
[26:28] don't you stay?"
[26:30] was a little something we call
[26:31] manipulation.
[26:32] >> Yes.
[26:33] >> And I feel like this is the part of the
[26:35] book where
[26:37] perhaps I most reveal
[26:39] the parts of myself I don't want anybody
[26:40] to know about me. But, it was like, I
[26:42] can't live without you.
[26:44] I don't know how to take care of myself.
[26:46] I'm terrified of the world. Your
[26:48] presence makes me feel like the world
[26:49] isn't scary. What am I going to have to
[26:52] do to make sure that you don't leave?
[26:53] And you're not my romantic partner and
[26:55] I'm married.
[26:56] Right? So I was like, oh, I'm going to
[26:58] generously offer you a a writing grant.
[27:00] Um it's just so that you can stay. Then
[27:02] this is me pulling the strings of
[27:05] somebody else's life to get what I want,
[27:07] which is what addicts do.
[27:10] Right? You lose your integrity and you
[27:12] start manipulating people, places, and
[27:16] things to get the drug that you need
[27:18] because at that point I was using her as
[27:21] a sedative.
[27:22] >> Okay. When she starts to
[27:25] drink the bitters or take the bitters
[27:28] and you look the other way
[27:31] and you realize, oh, the bitters are
[27:33] like what?
[27:34] >> 47% alcohol.
[27:35] >> 47% alcohol. She's not supposed to be
[27:39] taking alcohol or drinking alcohol and
[27:42] she tells you, comes to you and says
[27:45] babe, do you mind if if if I have a
[27:47] glass of wine because other friends of
[27:48] mine have said that I should have some
[27:51] wine and you say yes. But inside
[27:54] yourself you know that that's not the
[27:55] right answer. Or do you?
[27:58] >> I I was pretty I'm pretty good at
[27:59] compartmentalizing.
[28:01] >> Yes, uh-huh.
[28:01] >> [laughter]
[28:02] >> You know, I often think, I don't know if
[28:04] you all have this, but like I think
[28:05] there's things that some parts of us
[28:07] don't allow other parts of us to know
[28:09] yet
[28:10] >> because we can't handle it. So Raya was
[28:12] an addict in recovery. She had at that
[28:15] point 17 years sober.
[28:17] >> Mhm.
[28:18] >> She was a heroin and drug addict. In the
[28:20] rooms of 12-step recovery, it is an
[28:22] acknowledged truth that there is no
[28:23] difference between substances when it
[28:25] comes to addiction and although she was
[28:26] a drug addict, she should not be
[28:27] drinking alcohol cuz that is also a
[28:29] mind-altering substance and sobriety is
[28:31] I do not take mind-altering substances,
[28:33] right? So if when she suddenly said that
[28:36] she wanted to start drinking
[28:38] you know, there was like a little part
[28:40] of me that was like, is that a good idea
[28:42] for somebody who like lived on the like
[28:45] a low bottom addict, like jails,
[28:47] institutions, that like sort of good
[28:50] idea, you know, but she was also very
[28:51] convincing that it was fine. And the
[28:54] bottom line was I I say in the book I
[28:56] overlooked it rather than looking it
[28:58] over.
[28:59] Because I couldn't have there be any
[29:02] flaws with my God.
[29:04] >> Yes. Cuz by this time you've made her
[29:06] into a god.
[29:06] >> Yes.
[29:07] >> I love what you say early on in the
[29:09] book, page nine. What we commonly call
[29:11] an addict, I believe, is just an
[29:13] exaggerated version of all of us. Just a
[29:15] person so desperately in search of
[29:18] relief from the sting of life that they
[29:20] will use anything or anyone to soothe
[29:23] it. I hope for your own sake that you've
[29:25] never fallen quite as low as Rhea and I
[29:28] fell at some point during our journey
[29:29] together, but even if your wheels have
[29:31] never fully come off, I suspect at some
[29:33] level that I might be you and that you
[29:36] might be me. And that all of us might be
[29:39] Rhea.
[29:40] Can you expand on what an addict is?
[29:44] Just a exaggerated version of all of us.
[29:47] >> It's extremely uncomfortable being a
[29:48] spirit in human form.
[29:50] >> Yes.
[29:51] >> I don't personally believe that we come
[29:53] from this planet. I think we visit here.
[29:56] And I think we make this decision to
[29:58] come to what I call and many people call
[30:00] Earth School.
[30:00] >> Yeah, I believe that too.
[30:02] >> And I believe it is the toughest
[30:03] curriculum in the It is a highly
[30:05] accredited school. I don't care how
[30:07] privileged you were, you know this and I
[30:09] know this, there's nobody who moves
[30:11] through the experience of Earth School
[30:12] without trauma. And
[30:15] and then there are these magical
[30:16] substances
[30:17] >> Yeah.
[30:17] >> that you can take that ease that pain.
[30:19] And then there are these amazing people
[30:20] you can meet who seem to be able to ease
[30:22] that pain. There are these activities
[30:24] that you can do that can make you numb
[30:25] out. There's ways that you can escape
[30:28] your curriculum.
[30:29] And I think addiction is what happens
[30:33] when the escape
[30:35] that first it always feels good at
[30:37] first, right? It's like, okay, here's
[30:39] relief. When the relief becomes a
[30:42] problem.
[30:44] >> During Reya's last year of life,
[30:45] award-winning filmmaker Mark J. Francis
[30:48] followed Liz and Reya through some
[30:49] extraordinary moments of love, loss, and
[30:51] their search for meaning.
[30:53] >> I'm just asking
[30:55] for a little grace,
[30:58] a little mercy.
[31:02] So.
[31:06] Please help me.
[31:12] Okay.
[31:16] I'm like a chick that likes to keep me
[31:18] drugged up.
[31:19] Yeah, that's
[31:21] that's me.
[31:23] Little Miss Connie Sachs.
[31:25] >> The film titled Here I Am will be
[31:27] released in 2026. For more information,
[31:30] go to www.speakit.org.
[31:32] [music]
[31:35] >> So, how soon after she moved in and you
[31:39] all were together, did it start to
[31:41] spiral?
[31:44] >> Uh I'm pretty good at holding things
[31:46] together, but but I would say that I
[31:48] became aware
[31:50] pretty early on that
[31:52] Oh god, it's like it's I'm watching my
[31:54] mind go back and forth between denial
[31:57] and realization. Denial and realization.
[31:59] Denial and realization. I mean, any of
[32:00] you who have ever been in a difficult
[32:01] relationship would also probably find
[32:03] that question hard to answer. When did
[32:05] you know? Well, you kind of always knew,
[32:07] but then you also kind of never knew. I
[32:09] don't know but it's almost like having a
[32:11] head injury.
[32:12] >> Mhm.
[32:12] >> Um like honestly, you know, it's like
[32:14] what was I doing? Um but but I will say
[32:18] this, very quickly she became somebody
[32:20] who I was deeply reliant upon. Um and
[32:24] very quickly that reliance started to
[32:26] create anxiety in me.
[32:28] Like what am I going to do if she goes?
[32:30] Like what am I going to do if I lose
[32:32] >> And was the diagnosis still six months?
[32:34] You still working on a six month or
[32:36] we're talking about right after she was
[32:37] >> Yeah. oh sorry. So right after she was
[32:40] diagnosed with with cancer
[32:42] very quickly I left my marriage to go
[32:45] and be with her.
[32:46] The diagnosis was 6 months.
[32:49] And we kind of went on a bender
[32:51] together. I mean there was also there
[32:53] was the trauma and the drama of you've
[32:55] got 6 months to live, but there was also
[32:59] we've been in love with each other for a
[33:00] long time and we've both been keeping
[33:02] our hands to ourselves and been very
[33:04] good. You know, she had also been in
[33:06] love with me during that time as it
[33:08] turned out and so we had all the heady
[33:10] excitement and joy of being newly in
[33:12] love at the same time as the terror and
[33:15] the trauma of death. So it was a very
[33:17] heightened time.
[33:19] Something I've learned a lot about in
[33:21] recovery is addiction to excitement.
[33:25] And addiction to drama.
[33:28] And when you have a unregulated nervous
[33:31] system and you don't know how to soothe
[33:34] yourself, addiction to drama can be a
[33:37] way that you act out.
[33:39] And what I've learned now is that I was
[33:42] always afraid of being bored, so I've
[33:43] always had a very high drama, high
[33:45] octane, high excitement life.
[33:47] But somebody in the rooms explained it
[33:50] to me that
[33:52] excitement and boredom
[33:54] are just two sides of the same coin and
[33:56] that coin is actually called anxiety.
[33:59] And when Yeah, so when serenity's not on
[34:03] the menu
[34:04] when you don't know how to regulate
[34:06] yourself, when you don't know how to
[34:07] feel well, when you don't know how to be
[34:09] okay and you feel the anxiety that comes
[34:11] with that, you've got two choices. You
[34:13] can feel restless, irritable and
[34:15] discontent, bored
[34:16] or you can go override the feeling of
[34:19] anxiety by piling on a whole bunch of
[34:21] excitement, adrenaline addiction,
[34:23] cortisol addiction, right? If you grow
[34:26] up with a lot of drama and trauma, your
[34:28] body actually gets used to very high
[34:30] levels of cortisol and adrenaline and
[34:31] that also feels like home.
[34:33] >> That's right.
[34:33] >> So, we went on an adrenaline ride.
[34:35] >> That's why some people just thrive in
[34:38] chaos.
[34:38] >> Yes. Yes.
[34:39] >> Seemingly, they thrive in chaos.
[34:41] >> Yes.
[34:41] >> There was a point in your relationship
[34:43] where you write that you were trapped in
[34:44] hell.
[34:45] >> Yeah.
[34:46] >> Right? And you said you could see no way
[34:48] out. The apartment that you were renting
[34:51] became a dungeon of misery and and and
[34:55] danger and degradation.
[34:57] >> Yeah.
[34:57] >> And this was like in New York City
[34:59] >> Yeah.
[34:59] >> a two-bedroom
[35:01] >> apartment I rented for my
[35:03] >> Yes.
[35:03] >> partner so she would be happy in the
[35:04] last months of her life, and then she
[35:06] started taking all the opioids for the
[35:08] pain, for the cancer, and then that just
[35:10] triggered fully an addiction that
[35:12] [music] I think had been getting
[35:14] triggered for a long time since she'd
[35:15] started drinking. She added cocaine, she
[35:18] added cigarettes, she added trazodone,
[35:19] she added methadone, she added I mean,
[35:22] suddenly there was like a cocktail of
[35:23] drugs in her, and she became a full-on
[35:26] junkie.
[35:27] >> And then I honestly bring a cigarette
[35:29] and then I smoke it.
[35:30] >> Do it.
[35:31] >> And she wasn't a very nice one.
[35:33] Um her nephew at one point said to me,
[35:35] "I wish I wish Auntie Rae was a nicer
[35:36] drug addict." Um but she wasn't. She was
[35:39] a really mean drug addict.
[35:40] >> of things would she say to you?
[35:41] >> She was abusive. She was abusive and
[35:43] degrading and demanding and entitled and
[35:46] and you know, I'm a little good little
[35:47] codependent, so you know, you started
[35:50] using me, I'm going to work harder to
[35:51] make you happy. And so we got into that
[35:54] cycle really, really quickly.
[35:55] >> point, you were going to the free clinic
[35:57] for needles.
[35:59] >> Oh, yeah. And I got recognized there,
[36:00] Oprah. I went to the free clinic to get
[36:03] needles for my drug addict partner in it
[36:06] down in Chinatown at a New York City
[36:07] needle exchange. And I walked in and the
[36:09] woman went, "Oh my god, it's" and then
[36:11] she remembered it's an anonymous
[36:12] program.
[36:13] >> [laughter]
[36:14] >> You're not supposed to be like, "I know
[36:16] you" when people come in to get needles
[36:17] for their drug addiction. She hands me a
[36:19] clipboard and I fill it out that I'm a
[36:21] heroin addict.
[36:22] And the whole time she's looking at me
[36:23] like, "I love your books." You know, and
[36:25] I'm like, "I'm a heroin addict and I
[36:27] need some needles." And she's like,
[36:29] "Okay."
[36:30] Um but I didn't want Ray to have to go
[36:32] down there cuz that would have been
[36:33] shameful for her. So, I'll do it.
[36:35] Like that's how good an enabler I am.
[36:37] I'll do that for you. I will go get your
[36:39] needles.
[36:40] >> you What did you feel when the woman
[36:42] recognized you and you were there to get
[36:44] free needles?
[36:44] >> a funny story. Actually, it is fun I
[36:46] mean it is it is objectively a funny
[36:47] story. I mean she she looked at me and
[36:49] she was like, "Oh my god, Elizabeth
[36:50] Gilbert." And then she was like, "Oh my
[36:51] god, I'm so sorry." And then there's no
[36:53] there's no like playbook for what do you
[36:54] do when you're at a needle exchange
[36:56] getting
[36:57] You know, and you're like a best-selling
[36:59] author and like somebody meets their
[37:00] hero and it's you, but you're picking up
[37:02] needles for heroin. Like there's no So,
[37:04] this is how I handled it. I just went
[37:08] >> [laughter]
[37:12] >> What is that? I'm like, what am I even
[37:13] telling her?
[37:14] >> [laughter]
[37:15] >> Like I'm like a little wink like a
[37:16] little kissy
[37:19] I'm like, I don't even know what this
[37:20] means or why I'm doing this, but I'm
[37:22] like, "Hey, we're just you know, doing
[37:25] this." Um
[37:27] yeah, and I was paying for her cocaine
[37:28] and I was um taking you know, I was
[37:30] giving her whatever she wanted so that
[37:32] she would love me again.
[37:34] >> Uh when I got to the chapter titled
[37:36] Plotting,
[37:38] weren't you all just like I thought,
[37:40] "Whoa, what is going on here?" You
[37:42] reached a point where you actually
[37:44] thought about murdering her.
[37:46] >> Yeah.
[37:48] >> And also killing yourself or murdering
[37:50] her and
[37:51] >> I was going to kill her.
[37:52] And then and then I realized I couldn't
[37:54] because she was too cunning. She kind of
[37:57] smelled it in the air. And then I was
[37:59] like, "Oh, oh I could just again cut out
[38:01] the middleman and I could just kill me."
[38:03] Um and that was my rock bottom.
[38:05] >> read the beginning of this chapter for
[38:06] us?
[38:06] >> Yeah.
[38:08] I say in the book, "I'm the nice lady
[38:10] who wrote Eat, Pray, Love and I was
[38:11] going to murder
[38:13] I was actually going to murder. Uh it
[38:15] was in July of 2017 that I came up with
[38:17] a really good idea for what would save
[38:19] me from the nightmare that I was now
[38:21] trapped in with Raya, I decided I would
[38:23] kill her.
[38:27] >> So, how low had it gotten at that point?
[38:29] >> That's how low it had gotten.
[38:31] You know, um and I hadn't slept in
[38:34] weeks. I was absolutely in the lowest of
[38:37] my degradation of codependency enabling.
[38:40] Like my life had become sort of Sid and
[38:41] Nancy.
[38:42] >> Mhm.
[38:42] >> You know, just this this I I was acting
[38:45] in ways and doing things that I never
[38:46] imagined I could have done, but that
[38:47] wasn't why I was upset. I was upset
[38:49] because she was being mean to me. I was
[38:51] upset because the person who I had
[38:52] created as my god, who would take care
[38:55] of me, was being abusive um and had
[38:58] taken her love from me, which I was now
[39:00] the end game always of codependency
[39:02] begging her, begging a junkie to give me
[39:07] right? So, we were both in
[39:08] >> Begging the junkie to give you and to be
[39:10] nice to me.
[39:10] >> Begging a heroin addict who was shooting
[39:13] cocaine between her
[39:15] toes and into her neck to give me
[39:18] safety, nourishment, and
[39:20] >> love. This person is going to give me
[39:21] safety, nourishment, and love.
[39:23] >> Wow.
[39:24] >> Right? That's where we had gotten to.
[39:25] And there's a moment where
[39:28] you know, when I tried to kill her and
[39:29] then she kind of figured out I was
[39:30] trying to kill her and she was like,
[39:31] "Don't you start plotting against me."
[39:34] Um I mean, she was a street start smart
[39:36] survival. Nobody was going to kill Raya.
[39:37] >> Yeah.
[39:38] >> But there was a divine moment of
[39:39] intervention there where I heard God's
[39:42] voice and I was very far from God at
[39:43] that point. When you're deep in
[39:45] addiction, you're very very far from
[39:46] being able to hear God's voice, but
[39:48] God's voice penetrated that insanity.
[39:51] >> Tell us what God's voice said.
[39:52] >> said, "If you have reached a point in
[39:54] your life
[39:55] where you are seriously considering
[39:57] killing yourself or somebody else,
[39:59] you have very likely reached the end of
[40:01] your power.
[40:02] That being the case, perhaps you should
[40:04] call somebody and ask for help."
[40:07] >> And you did.
[40:08] >> And I did. And I spent the rest of that
[40:09] day sobbing, sitting in a dog park in
[40:12] New York City
[40:13] calling person after person, anybody who
[40:16] had experience with drug addiction, and
[40:17] just pulling wisdom down. And what was
[40:21] really interesting was that I was trying
[40:22] to get them to figure out how to help me
[40:24] get Raya off drugs.
[40:26] But what they were saying to me was,
[40:27] "You have a problem."
[40:30] Somebody said, "You need
[40:31] >> occurred to you that you had a problem?
[40:33] >> No. No. I had a problem. Her name was
[40:35] Raya. I had to fix her.
[40:37] >> Yeah.
[40:37] >> [laughter]
[40:38] >> You know, but I didn't know I had a
[40:39] problem. I'm the person who takes care
[40:40] of everybody and fixes them. So, what I
[40:42] was being told, and what a friend of
[40:44] mine very gently said was, "I've watched
[40:46] you now, Liz, for 30 years do this.
[40:50] And I think you really need a different
[40:52] kind of help. And there's a program,
[40:53] there's a 12-step program for people who
[40:56] have sex and love addiction, and I think
[40:57] you might want to go check it out."
[40:59] >> So, then did you decide that day that
[41:01] you heard the voice from God that I'm
[41:03] going to now go back and tell Raya that
[41:06] I can no longer be a part of this story.
[41:08] Tell us about that moment.
[41:09] >> I actually ended up leaving and going
[41:12] and staying with a friend for a few
[41:13] weeks because I was so out of my mind. I
[41:15] mean, I was also so sleep dep- I was so
[41:17] far from myself. I was so completely
[41:19] lost.
[41:21] >> She's been awful.
[41:24] And she's in such a rage.
[41:28] But I just couldn't do it anymore. And
[41:31] other people have had to step in and
[41:32] take care of her or I just said, "Look,
[41:34] I'm living at my sister's apartment. I'm
[41:36] 10 minutes away. My phone is always on.
[41:38] Whatever you need is taken care of.
[41:41] Chunky's needs are taken care of. Like,
[41:42] I'm still 100% providing for you in
[41:45] every way. I said, "Whatever you want to
[41:46] do." And she was like, "I don't want to
[41:47] see you."
[41:48] I started going to 12-step meetings
[41:50] during that time um for codependency,
[41:53] for, you know, people who are fam-
[41:54] Al-Anon, people who are family members
[41:55] of of addicts.
[41:57] Sex and love addiction. Like, I I
[41:59] started I I got what they call smart
[42:01] feet in the rooms, where I started
[42:03] taking myself to a couple meetings a
[42:04] day.
[42:04] >> it occur to you that you had a sex and
[42:06] love addiction up until this point?
[42:09] >> I mean, I knew I was a little I mean, no
[42:11] one's going to look at my relationship
[42:13] history and say that is an emotionally
[42:15] stable person.
[42:16] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[42:17] >> You know what I mean? Like if I if I
[42:18] laid it all out and I
[42:20] >> That's why I think the book is going to
[42:21] be so freeing, liberating for so many
[42:24] women who are going to recognize
[42:26] themselves in your story.
[42:27] >> They're going to say, "Oh, I've done
[42:29] that." Or I do that. I've gone from
[42:31] boyfriend to boyfriend or partner to
[42:33] partner, girlfriend to girlfriend, and
[42:35] haven't really assessed it. You're just
[42:38] like looking for the right person.
[42:40] >> And culture's telling you keep looking.
[42:42] >> And culture's telling you to keep
[42:43] looking.
[42:43] >> Right? And all the movies are telling
[42:45] you like he's out there, she's out
[42:46] there. You're going to find it. Your
[42:47] magical love story, right? So So we're
[42:49] being sold this at the same I don't want
[42:52] to blame culture for myself, but it's
[42:53] also part of it, you know? I mean, if I
[42:55] had been acting out with alcohol and
[42:58] cocaine and heroin the way I acted out
[43:00] in relationships, my friends would have
[43:02] had an intervention for me years ago. I
[43:04] mean, they kind of did. Um, you know,
[43:06] but I wasn't going to listen to anybody.
[43:08] You know, I mean, people were always
[43:10] saying, "Do you want to take a break? Do
[43:11] you want to pause before you go into the
[43:13] next This seems a little sudden. Do you
[43:15] really want to get married? You just met
[43:17] this person." I was like, "Yes, I'm a
[43:19] I'm a passionate person."
[43:21] You know? And I am a passionate person.
[43:23] Um, but I was abandoning myself again
[43:26] and again and again. And for me, what
[43:27] emotional sobriety looks like is no
[43:30] abandonment of self. That's my
[43:32] definition of emotional sobriety for me.
[43:34] No abandonment of self. And I was
[43:36] constantly abandoning myself and
[43:39] undermining myself and selling myself
[43:41] short.
[43:42] >> What did Raya do when you said I can no
[43:44] longer be a part of the story?
[43:46] >> She went back home to Michigan. Um, so
[43:48] the day came where I finally did say I
[43:50] can't I can't be in this story anymore.
[43:51] It's too degrading. And she an old
[43:54] friend helped her to get clean. And she
[43:56] got off all the illegal drugs.
[43:57] Miraculously, she was a hospice patient.
[44:00] She had no motive. I mean, that was part
[44:01] of the reason I couldn't threaten her
[44:02] because how do you threaten a hospice
[44:04] patient? What if you keep doing these
[44:05] drugs, you're going to die? She's like,
[44:07] "I'm already dying, [ __ ] I can do
[44:08] whatever I want." You know, like
[44:10] [laughter] she had a full past. Like she
[44:11] got a big case of what they call in the
[44:13] rooms the fuck-its, right? She got a big
[44:15] case of the fuck-its. She was like, "I
[44:16] can do whatever I want because I'm dying
[44:19] anyway."
[44:19] >> In six months. Um and and I was sort of
[44:21] like I can do whatever I The prognosis
[44:22] was six months. How long How long
[44:24] >> A year and a half cuz she was made out
[44:25] of titanium. And she lived on drugs and
[44:28] alcohol and like ring-dings and hot dogs
[44:31] the whole time. It wasn't like she was
[44:32] like doing anything nutritious, you
[44:34] know, but but she was really tough. You
[44:36] can't even pancreatic cancer had a tough
[44:38] time killing Raya.
[44:39] >> Wow.
[44:39] >> tough. So she went She got clean. Um she
[44:42] got clean. And so we never got back to
[44:44] the intimacy we had had. But I did get
[44:46] to have a sober Raya at the end of her
[44:48] life and she did die clean. And we were
[44:51] able to have a conversation about what
[44:53] had happened and a little bit of
[44:54] reconciliation.
[44:55] >> Well, I have to say you write
[44:57] extensively about your own recovery
[45:00] journey. I I really want people to read
[45:02] the book to find out how you did it.
[45:05] It's
[45:05] >> It's It's It's a long process.
[45:07] >> Yeah.
[45:07] >> It's always ongoing, right?
[45:09] >> Yeah.
[45:09] >> You're You're entirely now off of any
[45:12] mood-altering substances.
[45:14] >> Yeah. Yeah. Um and for me, of course,
[45:17] that's people.
[45:18] >> Um Which means you're still celibate,
[45:20] too. Can
[45:20] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that is not a
[45:22] requirement of recovery in my program,
[45:25] but for me, my higher power
[45:28] um a lot of times when people come into
[45:30] the recovery program I came into, it's
[45:31] suggested that you do not, you know, 90
[45:33] days of no contact with anybody you're
[45:35] involved with or a year of celibacy. A
[45:37] year of celibacy and 90 days is nothing
[45:39] for somebody who's been deep in the pain
[45:41] in this addiction for 35 uninterrupted
[45:43] years. I have been abandoning myself
[45:45] into other people from the minute I
[45:47] could, right? I have never given myself
[45:50] with the exception of 9 months of Eat,
[45:52] Pray, Love when I was on my own. That's
[45:54] the only time in my life I had ever been
[45:56] on my own. Before I met a man who then
[45:58] showered love on me, I was like, "Okay,
[45:59] I'll marry you." You know, like but but
[46:01] never had I been on my own. Always
[46:04] enmeshed and entangled in one person
[46:06] after another. So for me,
[46:08] I put it down when I came into the
[46:10] rooms. I was like, I this is a living
[46:12] amends to all those younger versions of
[46:14] myself who never had the opportunity to
[46:17] know who they were, to learn how to
[46:19] thrive. So for me, this has been the
[46:22] period of my life where I'm I've been in
[46:24] this blooming. You know, like there's a
[46:26] stunted emotional growth if you're
[46:28] constantly in relationship with other
[46:30] people, you never get to learn how to
[46:32] provide for yourself.
[46:33] >> Mhm.
[46:33] >> Um in a deep emotional and spiritual
[46:35] way, and that's what my journey has
[46:36] been.
[46:37] >> What do you want to say to anyone who
[46:38] may be listening or watching us who may
[46:40] be feeling powerless or certainly
[46:43] ashamed? I think first of all, you read
[46:45] this book, you will not be ashamed
[46:47] anymore.
[46:48] >> That's true.
[46:48] >> To admit whatever is going on with you
[46:50] because you have poured out your soul
[46:52] and showed us that there is love for
[46:55] yourself on the other side.
[46:57] >> Yeah.
[46:57] >> So what do you want to say to those
[46:58] people who are in a situation right now?
[47:01] Obviously, there are people who are
[47:02] watching us
[47:03] and listening to us who are in an
[47:05] unimaginable situation.
[47:07] >> Yeah.
[47:07] >> What do you want to say?
[47:08] >> Well, first of all, you you aren't
[47:09] alone. And part of the reason that I
[47:11] think I wanted to write a book that was
[47:13] so
[47:15] raw and so honest was it's like, look,
[47:18] I'm the Eat Pray Love lady.
[47:20] And look what I got into.
[47:22] You know what I mean? Like, I'm the Eat
[47:24] Pray Love lady with 20 years of a
[47:26] spiritual journey behind me, 30 years of
[47:28] therapy behind me, all the resources in
[47:30] the entire world, the admiration of the
[47:32] entire world, and look what I got into.
[47:35] Right? So it's okay. We all end up at
[47:38] various times in our life very, very far
[47:40] away from ourselves. It can happen to
[47:42] anybody. So that's the first thing that
[47:44] I would want to say is you are my
[47:45] sister. I see you. I see you. I know
[47:49] you. I am you.
[47:50] >> Mhm.
[47:51] >> So come and hang out with with me. Like
[47:54] like if you're feeling ashamed. And the
[47:56] second thing I want to say is that
[47:59] there is a
[48:03] dignity
[48:05] that awaits you
[48:07] when you put all the things that you've
[48:10] been using to not have to feel
[48:13] when you put those things down and you
[48:15] sit with yourself through the worst
[48:18] feelings of your entire journey and you
[48:22] lay comfort upon yourself and you be
[48:24] with yourself and you say to yourself
[48:26] the words that you always so deeply
[48:28] wished that somebody else would say to
[48:29] you. Right? That's what I started doing
[48:31] was writing myself these letters from
[48:33] love from unconditional love where I
[48:35] would pour into me what I have always
[48:37] wanted to hear. I knew what I needed to
[48:39] hear cuz I've been trying to manipulate
[48:41] people into saying it to me forever.
[48:42] What I want you to say to me but I
[48:45] started to say it to me was I will never
[48:47] leave you. That is the primary thing. I
[48:50] will never leave you. I am not going
[48:53] anywhere. I have got you. I am with you.
[48:56] You don't even have to get well and I
[48:58] will never leave you. I see you. I know
[49:00] everything you've done and I love you
[49:02] and I will never leave you.
[49:04] I believe now, I've come to believe that
[49:07] God, what I call God, higher power, the
[49:10] great mystery, gave me this spirit to
[49:13] steward through life. This soul, this
[49:16] being and I like to believe that it was
[49:18] given to me because God believed I could
[49:20] take care of it. If God didn't think I
[49:22] could take care of it, they wouldn't
[49:23] have given it to me.
[49:25] It gave me me and I don't think I'd ever
[49:27] fully taken responsibility for me and
[49:29] when I was first told in the rooms of
[49:31] recovery that you have to take
[49:32] responsibility for yourself, I was so
[49:34] angry cuz I've like I've been told that
[49:35] since the day I was born.
[49:37] I want someone else to take
[49:38] responsibility for me. And they're like,
[49:40] "Okay, go back out there and try that
[49:41] again.
[49:42] Try that again. See how it works." Or
[49:44] you can pick up that child
[49:48] and say, "You're mine. I've got you and
[49:51] >> And to walk through the rest of this
[49:53] journey with you. And that's what I'm
[49:54] doing. That's the relationship that I'm
[49:56] in right now.
[49:57] So, the reversal of obsession, obsession
[50:00] is that person that comes first, I come
[50:02] second, God comes last. That's what love
[50:04] addiction looks like.
[50:06] The healing properties for me is you
[50:08] reverse that. God first, me second,
[50:10] everybody else.
[50:12] Right? That's now the new the new mental
[50:14] that.
[50:15] >> And the hair?
[50:17] >> Well,
[50:18] the hair was I've been dreaming about
[50:21] doing this for years. I think it's
[50:23] really cool when women have shaved
[50:24] heads. And
[50:26] and I was always like, I can't do it.
[50:27] I'm a public figure. I've got to look a
[50:29] certain way. I've got to be media ready.
[50:31] I have to And I also am a love addict.
[50:33] I'm trying to get people to love me. So,
[50:34] I'm always trying to look pretty.
[50:35] >> Yeah.
[50:36] >> Right? And somewhere about 3 years into
[50:39] being celibate and being on my own, I
[50:41] was like,
[50:42] I just want to do this. Like, I just
[50:44] want to do this. And the final moment of
[50:47] it that made me do it was that I was at
[50:48] an event in New York City,
[50:50] um a media event with a lot of people
[50:52] around my age, our age. And I looked
[50:54] around the room and every single one of
[50:55] the men had buzzed hair, or they were
[50:58] bald, or they were graying, short short
[51:00] short hair. They all had natural faces,
[51:03] and they were all wearing comfortable
[51:04] clothes. And every single one of the
[51:06] women had some kind of pretty girl hair
[51:08] that I know how much it costs. I can
[51:10] price it out. Like, I know how much it
[51:11] costs to get that straightened, to get
[51:13] that blow cuz I used to do all that
[51:14] stuff.
[51:14] >> Colored.
[51:15] >> Colored, they all had very expensive
[51:17] hair.
[51:18] They had very expensive faces.
[51:20] Like, I could see what they were doing
[51:21] to their faces, and I know cuz I did all
[51:23] that, too. And they were wearing very
[51:25] uncomfortable clothes. And I had this
[51:26] moment of rage where I looked around the
[51:28] room and I'm like, why are men allowed
[51:29] to be comfortable? Why are men allowed
[51:31] to age naturally? And why are men just
[51:33] allowed to be at ease? And then I was
[51:34] like, well, I could just sit here
[51:36] complaining about unfair beauty
[51:37] standards, or I can just claim that
[51:39] entitlement for myself, and just say I'm
[51:41] not going to wait for the culture to
[51:42] change. I'm going to be as comfortable
[51:44] as a man. And so, I just went to CVS and
[51:47] got some clippers and I buzzed my hair
[51:49] and at that point the decision I made
[51:50] was like, I'm going to be post beauty. I
[51:52] don't care. I just don't care. I just
[51:53] want to be comfortable. I want to jump
[51:55] into oceans and lakes and rivers. I want
[51:57] to be free. Cuz so much of my sobriety,
[51:59] my emotional sobriety, my recovery is
[52:00] about this growing feeling of freedom.
[52:03] Like this lack of dependency. I'm like,
[52:05] I just want to celebrate this freedom. I
[52:06] don't even care if it's ugly. And then I
[52:08] shaved off and I was like, I think it
[52:09] looks good. I think
[52:11] >> [laughter]
[52:11] >> Like I have the head shape for
[52:13] >> You have the head shape for it.
[52:14] >> Well, every single woman I have met when
[52:16] I
[52:17] talk about my hair says, I don't have
[52:19] the the head shape for it.
[52:21] Is that true? Do we all have weird
[52:23] shaped heads?
[52:25] >> [laughter]
[52:25] >> Or do have we all been told that there's
[52:27] even in this regard something
[52:28] fundamentally wrong with us?
[52:30] Right?
[52:33] >> Maybe I do have the head shape for
[52:34] >> I'm just saying. Because I also for
[52:36] years didn't do it cuz I was like, I
[52:38] don't have the right head shape for it.
[52:39] And now I can guarantee I can count
[52:41] down. What happens is a woman will say,
[52:42] "Oh my god, that must be amazing. It
[52:43] looks so free." And then I hear five,
[52:45] four, three, two. I don't have the right
[52:47] head shape
[52:47] >> I have the right head shape for it.
[52:48] >> And it's like, you have been told that
[52:50] every single part of you is wrong.
[52:53] From head to toe, every single part of
[52:55] you.
[52:55] >> Yes.
[52:56] So, let me ask you this.
[52:59] Do you feel cured or do those urges
[53:02] still show up if you were to meet
[53:04] somebody?
[53:05] How how
[53:06] >> I'm an addict. Okay, don't get me wrong.
[53:08] You know what I mean? Like I've had I
[53:11] just for today, let's just stay in in
[53:13] 12-step recovery language. Just for
[53:16] today, I'm doing really well. You know,
[53:18] like I have a
[53:19] deep respect for my addiction and the
[53:22] power of it. And that's why I go to a
[53:24] 12-step meeting every single day. Uh in
[53:27] various fellowships that I belong to, I
[53:30] sponsor people, that helps me stay
[53:32] sober. I have a sponsor. Um I turn
[53:35] things over in the rooms that I don't
[53:37] want people to know about me. Like I
[53:38] work a program. And I work a I work a
[53:41] very very disciplined program. But the
[53:43] main thing that I do is that every
[53:45] single morning when I wake up, I open my
[53:47] notebook and I do this thing that's
[53:49] called two-way prayer that the original
[53:51] founders of AA actually said was the
[53:53] most important thing that an addict in
[53:55] recovery can have is a direct communion
[53:58] with the higher power of their
[53:59] understanding.
[54:00] And they gave a lot of liberal concept
[54:02] to what your understanding is, whatever
[54:04] that needs to be. But I open up my
[54:07] notebook and I write these words, "Dear
[54:08] God, what would you have me know today?"
[54:10] And then I download from my higher power
[54:13] what I need for the day.
[54:15] I like my life has become, and I know
[54:17] you get this, all I want to do is be of
[54:20] service.
[54:20] >> Mhm.
[54:21] >> So, if I stay well and I stay sober and
[54:24] I don't throw my life into somebody
[54:25] else's life
[54:26] and I communicate with my higher power
[54:28] every day, then I have the opportunity
[54:31] every single day to be of service. And
[54:32] in this morning's two-way prayer, God
[54:34] was like, "You're going to go talk to
[54:35] the nice lady." That's what God calls
[54:37] you.
[54:37] >> Mhm.
[54:38] >> "You're going to go talk to the nice
[54:39] lady."
[54:41] >> Yeah.
[54:41] >> God said, "You're going to go talk to
[54:42] the nice lady
[54:44] and I just want you to answer the
[54:45] questions. This isn't about you. This
[54:48] interview isn't for you. It's for
[54:50] whoever is listening.
[54:51] >> Yeah.
[54:51] >> So, whatever questions arise, I want you
[54:53] to tell the truth and that's how you'll
[54:55] serve me today."
[54:57] >> I thank you so much.
[55:00] >> I thank you.
[55:01] >> you so much. I thank you for this book,
[55:03] All the Way to the River.
[55:05] And I I love the way the title was
[55:07] chosen about who's going to be the
[55:09] friend that walks with you all the way
[55:10] to the river and not just to 34th
[55:12] Street, but all the way to the river. I
[55:14] hope you all have all the way to the
[55:16] river friends.
[55:18] Uh it's about love and loss and
[55:19] liberation and it is your soul on the
[55:23] pages as an act of service to everyone
[55:27] who reads it.
[55:27] >> Thank you so much.
[55:28] >> did that thing, Elizabeth.
[55:30] >> Thank you.
[55:30] >> that thing. It's available wherever
[55:32] books are sold. Audience, thank you so
[55:34] much. Thank you.
[55:35] >> everybody. I love you.
[55:37] >> [applause]
[55:40] >> Before we go, I want to share a quick
[55:42] thing with all of you readers. I
[55:43] recently published something I'm excited
[55:45] about. It's called a book lovers
[55:46] journal. And here's what's great. Has
[55:48] over 100 prompts like the first book
[55:51] that made you feel seen and the book
[55:53] that reminded you of what matters most.
[55:55] All designed to enhance your reading
[55:57] experience. It's a great gift for book
[55:59] lovers and I hear book clubs are using
[56:01] it when they meet, which makes me so
[56:03] happy. I write about some of my favorite
[56:05] books and for sentences and it is
[56:07] available anywhere you buy books and
[56:09] audience, you're all going home with a
[56:10] copy. We can journal all your favorite
[56:12] quotes.
[56:14] >> [applause]
[56:14] >> And I have here you have a giveaway of
[56:16] your own. What is it?
[56:17] >> So, um
[56:19] I make these stickers. I design them
[56:21] with my friend Margaret and the designer
[56:23] is a young woman named Michelle Musli
[56:25] who just graduated from design school.
[56:27] Says you are loved. I make them in
[56:29] thousands and I give them away to
[56:31] everybody I meet. Any human I encounter
[56:33] anywhere, I hand them to them. So, I
[56:35] brought one for all of you today. So,
[56:36] these will be in your bags as well.
[56:39] Um
[56:39] >> [applause]
[56:39] >> I think my uh
[56:41] My part-time job is writer. My full-time
[56:43] job is handing stickers out that say you
[56:45] are loved
[56:46] >> loved. You are loved.
[56:47] >> to everybody in the world because I
[56:48] think that's what we all so desperately
[56:50] need to hear.
[56:51] >> Well, thanks to our phenomenal partner
[56:52] Starbucks for welcoming us here to
[56:54] Starbucks headquarters today. What
[56:57] better place to enjoy good books, good
[56:59] coffee and good company? The pairing
[57:01] this month is
[57:03] >> the pumpkin spice latte.
[57:05] >> [laughter]
[57:06] >> Perfect for fall. Go well, everybody.
[57:08] Thank you so much.
[57:09] >> Thank [applause] you.