Transcript
[0:05] hello and thank you for joining us my
[0:08] name is Travis Newell I live and work
[0:10] here at Shambala Mountain Center where
[0:13] we're going to be hosting awaken in your
[0:16] dreams lucid dream Yoga East and West a
[0:21] program that's going to be led by step
[0:24] Lear and Andrew
[0:26] hollich uh later this summer August 20th
[0:29] through the 25 5th and we're quite
[0:32] excited to uh be hosting this program
[0:35] that real confident will shift
[0:38] participants experience of reality for
[0:41] sure and I'm excited today to have
[0:44] Andrew hollich here for some
[0:47] conversation uh around the topic of
[0:49] dream yoga and lucid
[0:52] dreaming Andrew hich offers seminars
[0:56] internationally on meditation dream yoga
[0:59] and death
[1:01] he is the author of many books including
[1:03] preparing to die practical advice and
[1:06] spiritual wisdom from the Tibetan
[1:08] Buddhist tradition and the audio
[1:10] learning course dream yoga the Tibetan
[1:13] path of Awakening through lucid
[1:16] dreaming and uh see either later this
[1:19] year or next year he's going to be
[1:22] releasing a book titled dream yoga
[1:25] illuminating your life through lucid
[1:27] dreaming and the Tibetan yogas of sleep
[1:29] so um folks who may attend the retreat
[1:33] or aren't able to will definitely have
[1:36] something to look forward to in that
[1:38] book so Andrew thank you so much for
[1:40] taking the time to to join us and have
[1:42] some discussion today oh was my pleasure
[1:45] Travis nice to see you
[1:47] again so I think a good place to start
[1:51] would be a small huge
[1:57] question is this a dream
[2:02] Dream well it's like a dream I mean
[2:05] that's a a pretty sophisticated opening
[2:07] question actually um we talk as you know
[2:10] especially we meaning the Buddhist
[2:12] tradition and as you know Travis the
[2:15] idea of wakening and dreaming is really
[2:17] inherent in in Buddhism Al together I
[2:20] mean the word Buddha comes from the
[2:23] Sanskrit root which means to awaken or
[2:25] to
[2:26] know and uh the implication is that uh
[2:31] and by contrast that means there are
[2:34] those who are not Buddhist that are not
[2:35] awake and are therefore considered to be
[2:37] asleep so according to those who have
[2:40] awakened um in the Buddhist tradition or
[2:42] really from any
[2:44] tradition the implication is that we are
[2:47] in fact um dreaming and what that
[2:52] actually means is a pretty sophisticated
[2:54] question because it's obviously not
[2:56] exactly like a dream this is sometimes
[2:59] referred to this this experience our
[3:01] so-called waking
[3:03] reality is sometimes referred to as the
[3:05] example
[3:07] um I should say the primary dream or or
[3:10] the primary delusion and the nighttime
[3:12] dream is sometimes referred to as the
[3:14] example dream or the double delusion and
[3:19] what this alludes to what it refers to
[3:21] is
[3:22] that for practical purposes we can use
[3:25] our nighttime dreams and Awakening
[3:28] within them which is what Luc dreaming
[3:30] is all about as a way in fact to learn
[3:33] how to wake up from this conditioned
[3:37] reality that brings about so much
[3:39] unnecessary suffering and thereby uh
[3:42] attain The Liberation that the great
[3:43] awakened ones actually did attain so um
[3:47] what we are in sconsin right now is very
[3:50] much like a dream
[3:53] um and really the Practical take on
[3:55] message is that if we engage with a
[3:57] nighttime practices the elegant
[4:00] nocturnal meditations as I refer to them
[4:03] we can in fact use our nighttime
[4:05] experience as a way to wake up during
[4:07] the day these are some of the things
[4:09] that we explore in the program and
[4:11] obviously writings that I do so that's a
[4:15] a wonderfully difficult opening
[4:19] question yeah the simple ones can be
[4:23] complex I suppose so maybe um a
[4:26] clarifying question now you know you're
[4:27] talking
[4:28] about uh practices that we're doing
[4:31] while we're
[4:33] sleeping and so does that differentiate
[4:37] dream yoga from lucid dreaming so maybe
[4:41] um could you say something about what
[4:43] lucid dreaming is and then you know what
[4:46] maybe describe what dream yoga is sure
[4:48] sure sure so yeah I mean lucid dreaming
[4:51] is when you
[4:54] realize that you're actually in a dream
[4:57] but you don't wake up from it um it's a
[4:59] really magical
[5:01] sudden experience that can happen
[5:02] serously to a number of different people
[5:06] and um lucid dreaming per se and some of
[5:09] these definitions are a little bit kind
[5:11] of gray but lucid dreaming per se
[5:14] doesn't necessarily have any practice
[5:17] component to it um very often one of the
[5:19] reasons that lucid dreaming is so
[5:21] popular these days and there's so many
[5:23] books coming out and it's really The
[5:24] Rage of so many websites and lucid dream
[5:27] forums is a uh lucid dreaming can be
[5:32] just a great way to have a tremendous
[5:33] amount of fun I mean you really can do
[5:36] virtually anything that your mind
[5:38] desires um I sometimes use the the
[5:41] analogy that you're the writer director
[5:44] producer and main actor of of a movie
[5:46] that is entirely your own and that as
[5:49] you may might suspect is not necessarily
[5:51] going to wake you up in a spiritual
[5:53] sense you can have a great deal of fun
[5:55] but from a spiritual
[5:58] perspective this kind of IND Indulgence
[6:00] in the lucid dream state can actually
[6:02] create negative Karma because wherever
[6:05] intention is involved even in the dream
[6:07] karma is creative so what differentiates
[6:09] one of the things that differentiates
[6:11] dream yoga from elcid dreaming is that
[6:13] elcid dreaming is really the platform
[6:15] for all the nighttime practices by the
[6:17] way there are several others there's
[6:18] what's called Sleep yoga and then even
[6:21] further BTO yoga but the main um
[6:23] practice of course is dream yoga so what
[6:25] happens is you use Lucidity in the dream
[6:27] as a platform you wake up standard lucid
[6:30] dream and dream yoga is differentiated
[6:33] because now you
[6:35] engage the dream state in other words
[6:37] you engage your mind in the medium of
[6:39] the dream as a way to train your mind as
[6:42] a way to cultivate qualities of
[6:46] Awakening and you don't then just leave
[6:48] the discoveries that you have in the
[6:51] lucid dream state the fundamental
[6:53] Charter you could say is to take the
[6:55] insights that you been glean the
[6:57] practices that you accomplish in you
[7:00] drain stake and then you bring those
[7:02] into your daily life and this is where
[7:04] it becomes extraordinarily profound it's
[7:06] really a very evolved very sophisticated
[7:10] way to accelerate processes of Spiritual
[7:13] Awakening because you're working with
[7:16] extremely subtle and deep levels of
[7:18] mind about as deep as you can get I mean
[7:22] you're really working with unconscious
[7:25] levels of mind and as we all know really
[7:27] whatever we do in our surface mind
[7:30] really depth psychologists and virtually
[7:32] everybody in the psychological world
[7:34] since Freud can tell you that what we do
[7:36] on the surface of our life is dictated
[7:38] by what takes place you could say
[7:42] metaphorically in the tectonic sphere of
[7:45] our being in our our unconscious mind so
[7:48] when you're working with dream yoga you
[7:50] can actually access the unconscious mind
[7:52] a little bit more directly and then
[7:54] hence achieve more rapid spiritual
[7:57] progress um evolution in some instances
[8:01] you know complete full-blown Spiritual
[8:04] Awakening for instance in the the
[8:05] Buddhist tradition kapo the great
[8:09] lineage holder of one of the foring
[8:11] schools of Tibetan budhism attain his
[8:12] spiritual awakening through dream yoga
[8:15] so the practice goes very deep and very
[8:16] profound and and it's something that can
[8:19] be used initially when I work with
[8:22] people I like to introduce them to good
[8:24] old standard lucid dreaming because
[8:26] really it's a great deal of fun it's
[8:27] tremendously entertaining this
[8:29] inherently nothing wrong with that it's
[8:31] a great way to start the game but then
[8:34] for people who are interested in going
[8:36] deeper then this entire Avenue of
[8:38] psychological and Spiritual Development
[8:40] is really waiting anyone who likes to
[8:42] engage in these
[8:47] practices anyone who you know wants to
[8:51] go deeper so I guess that there's sort
[8:53] of a question that was coming up for me
[8:55] around wonder
[8:57] who this is for
[9:01] um when we talk
[9:03] about um you know having a meditation
[9:07] practice or a yoga practice in our daily
[9:11] live lives on planet Earth
[9:15] [Music]
[9:16] um it seems rare that we're talking
[9:20] about the or that I hear it spoken about
[9:23] with the amount of depth and profundity
[9:27] that is was part of your description of
[9:30] the dream yoga as far as kind of
[9:31] dropping into the fundamental nature of
[9:34] mind there's a little bit of a a a fear
[9:37] reflex there like I kind of want to like
[9:40] reduce my stress I kind of want to relax
[9:43] I like what mindfulness does but that
[9:46] sounds like what am I gonna get there is
[9:47] there that's beautiful yeah that's a
[9:49] really great Insight Travis great
[9:51] question and I think here what needs to
[9:52] be done and this is what we explore in
[9:54] these programs there needs to be a
[9:57] slightly more refined understanding of
[9:59] the nature of our own mind and in
[10:01] particular here a very critical
[10:03] distinction is really being able to
[10:05] distinguish between two levels of the
[10:07] unconscious mind and what you're
[10:09] referring to is is the
[10:11] classical kind of uh first stage of the
[10:15] unconscious mind this is the stage that
[10:16] Freud really accessed in the west most
[10:19] powerfully um it's so much in the domain
[10:21] of of of psychotherapy even to this date
[10:25] and and in this kind of strata at this
[10:28] level of the subconscious or unconscious
[10:30] mind there is a lot of refuges there is
[10:33] a lot of what I like to refer to as
[10:35] spiders and snakes of rejected
[10:37] experience and a lot of Shadow elements
[10:39] a lot of unwanted rubbish is um thrown
[10:43] into this subconscious unconscious mind
[10:46] and indeed that can have some unwanted
[10:49] consequences and can be a little bit
[10:52] disconcerting um those who experience
[10:54] nightmares are subject to the expression
[10:57] of this quality of the unconscious mind
[11:00] more directly in the dreams they we run
[11:03] as I alluded to before whether we know
[11:05] it or not and this is one of the
[11:07] definitions of what it means to be
[11:08] asleep both psychologically and
[11:10] spiritually and even Christ said it you
[11:13] know on one level you could say you
[11:14] could interpret what he said forgive
[11:16] them Father for they know not what they
[11:18] do in a certain sense we spend most of
[11:20] our Lives not knowing what we're doing
[11:23] based on this vast repository of the
[11:27] unconscious mind is the Russon
[11:28] psychological tradition go for it so you
[11:32] have to kind of understand that that's
[11:33] like an intermediate bandwidth of the
[11:35] mind that can really provide a a
[11:37] tremendous amount of resistance and even
[11:40] fear I and it's simply because we don't
[11:42] know that there's something deeper than
[11:44] that and that that isn't really who we
[11:45] are that's just a bunch of clouds
[11:49] fundamentally that we can absolutely
[11:50] penetrate so when we go into these
[11:52] deeper
[11:53] practices we start to access uh an even
[11:57] more foundational level of the
[11:59] unconscious mind and this is you could
[12:01] say is more in the domain of the
[12:03] spiritual Traditions um and the
[12:05] fantastically good news about this level
[12:07] of the unconscious mind is that it is
[12:10] absolutely beneficent it's radiant it's
[12:13] divined it's perfectly pure um in the
[12:16] Shambala Buddhist tradition as you well
[12:18] know is referred to as basic goodness
[12:20] and this is the ground of our being this
[12:22] is the absolute substrate of who we are
[12:26] and if we understand that even at the
[12:28] level of the map even doctrinally you
[12:31] know even through this kind of
[12:32] philosophical view then we realize that
[12:35] yeah you might have to penetrate through
[12:37] some of this unwanted stuff I mean
[12:38] really one way or or another you have to
[12:41] relate to these unconscious aspects of
[12:44] Mind otherwise your conscious life is
[12:46] dictated entirely by this rubbish so in
[12:50] these practices meditation does it to
[12:52] some extent these practices do it a
[12:53] little bit more directly you're going
[12:56] into and then through you're literally
[12:58] cutting through this Refuge this refused
[13:01] experience in the psychologically
[13:03] unconscious mind as you start to access
[13:06] this deeper incredible wealth this
[13:08] Reservoir this this gold mine of of
[13:11] divinity that's within you and to me
[13:14] that's exceedingly important um because
[13:16] that then provides um an Avenue where
[13:19] you can replace anxiety with
[13:21] anticipation where yeah you still might
[13:24] have some nightmares but if you're Lucid
[13:26] in your nightmares that means you have
[13:28] control or these unconscious unwed
[13:31] experiences and then you can start to
[13:33] control them so really the take-home
[13:35] message with these practices is that one
[13:37] way or another the unconscious level of
[13:39] mind the first level is going to dictate
[13:42] what you do at a conscious level whether
[13:44] you know it or not and all psychological
[13:47] work I You could argue a great deal of
[13:49] it and certainly spiritual work is about
[13:51] going through that particular band
[13:54] purifying it processing it cutting
[13:56] through it and then where the
[13:58] psychological aspect you could say hands
[14:00] its baton to the spiritual aspect is
[14:03] that these practices the spiritual
[14:05] components of dream yoga and even sleep
[14:08] yoga which goes even deeper they allow
[14:10] you to explore to access this vast
[14:13] reservoir of tremendous spiritual
[14:14] goodness that is really at the heart of
[14:16] your very being right now and it's
[14:19] really important to understand this when
[14:20] you engage in these nighttime practices
[14:22] because so many of us are literally and
[14:25] metaphorically afraid of the dark and
[14:28] this darkness is really
[14:29] just a cold word for ignorance and
[14:32] ignorance is always associated with fear
[14:34] we're afraid of what we don't know so if
[14:37] we start to explore our own heart and
[14:39] mind you know through these programs
[14:41] through these teachings and then most
[14:42] directly through these practices all a
[14:45] sudden the unknown becomes known and
[14:48] fear is then penetrated and instead of
[14:50] going to sleep and then even
[14:53] dying um with you know with some level
[14:55] of anxiety or trepidation there's just a
[14:58] tremendous sense of anticipation that
[15:00] wow you know deep within me this
[15:02] tremendous sense of wealth and wisdom
[15:04] and compassion and goodness and these
[15:06] practices can actually accelerate
[15:08] accessing these bandwidths of my deepest
[15:10] mind and honestly for me Travis doing
[15:13] these practices for some 30 years this
[15:16] has been hands down the most exciting
[15:18] part is you know being able to drill
[15:21] down you know using a metaphor dropping
[15:24] down into wealth deep within us being
[15:27] able to drill down through all this
[15:30] relative unconscious stuff that causes
[15:32] so much unnecessary suffering saying
[15:34] that's that not at all who I am it's
[15:36] only if you identify with it if you're
[15:38] non Lucid to it then it becomes
[15:41] problematic but if you become Lucid to
[15:43] it if you're aware of it if you realize
[15:45] that's not really who I am and then you
[15:47] can therefore keep your penetrating gaze
[15:50] to cut through it the clouds are still
[15:53] there but you no longer identify with
[15:55] them they no longer have as much power
[15:56] as they do and that is a tremendously
[16:00] liberating aspect of these practices and
[16:03] really for me a very exciting
[16:08] aspect so you mentioned the dying
[16:13] process uh in which you were just
[16:16] saying and makes me think
[16:19] of you were talking about okay there are
[16:22] some there are some maybe snakes and
[16:24] spiders down there that you kind of
[16:26] don't want to deal with and
[16:29] um so you know for me okay I have a a
[16:32] sense of the the vastness that is that's
[16:35] available and also some snake and snakes
[16:38] and spiders to go to sort
[16:41] through and when I when I think about of
[16:43] course that's do it there's a little
[16:47] part of me you know it's like well maybe
[16:49] I can just not if I could just coast
[16:52] along this maybe that that unconscious
[16:55] stuff is you know determining my life uh
[16:58] how how things are going right now but
[17:00] it's pretty much okay it's usually not
[17:03] like totally
[17:05] terrifying um but I also know that I'm
[17:09] headed for death the big
[17:11] uncertainty so you know in a Sit it's
[17:14] like I wonder if there's a little bit of
[17:16] uh there's a little bit of maybe
[17:17] choicelessness there like I'm gonna have
[17:19] to deal with it at some point so maybe
[17:22] uh maybe it's a good idea to look into
[17:25] these practices even if there's some
[17:26] resistance yeah I think so Tris because
[17:29] you know really um according to the at
[17:32] least the the Buddhist view Buddhist
[17:34] view of Mind in
[17:36] reality um when we do die you know not
[17:40] unlike sleeping actually there there are
[17:41] many coreless many analogues between the
[17:43] process of sleeping and the process of
[17:46] of dying and in fact in the in the
[17:48] Tibetan Buddhist tradition which is
[17:50] really of all the schools of Buddhism
[17:52] the Tibetan Buddhists are the ones who
[17:53] really put forth dream
[17:55] yoga and sleep yoga and dream yoga
[17:58] really came about principally in the
[18:00] Buddhist tradition as a way to prepare
[18:02] for death and the more you explore this
[18:05] the more you start to see how true this
[18:07] really can be because really when we
[18:09] sleep and according to the buddist vi
[18:11] when we die it's really in both
[18:15] expressions of mind they are indeed
[18:17] journeys of the mind they're they're um
[18:20] Retreats away from The Superficial
[18:24] exterior um and really suffering ridden
[18:28] Liv we may we may not think we're
[18:30] suffering all the time but you know if
[18:33] you are engaged in any level of
[18:35] experience that is impermanent that is
[18:38] subject to change sooner or later there
[18:41] will be a level of dissatisfaction which
[18:44] is probably the best way to interpret
[18:46] the truth of suffering in the western
[18:48] world and um it behooves I think Sera
[18:53] sensitive people to really take a look
[18:54] as he suggested that you know there is
[18:56] this encroaching Darkness Called Death
[18:59] and maybe there's something I can do
[19:01] about it maybe there's something I can
[19:04] do to
[19:05] prepare my journey into uh know this
[19:09] ultimate Darkness so to speak and this
[19:11] is where you know this is the final
[19:13] stage of the Nighttime Yoga really the
[19:15] nocturnal meditations reach their
[19:18] culmination when you can actually
[19:20] penetrate the mysteries of death
[19:21] according to the Tibetan view with these
[19:23] practices and it makes complete sense
[19:25] because as you cycle through the dream
[19:28] State and then even more profoundly deep
[19:30] dreamless sleep these are considered
[19:33] what are called concordant experiences
[19:35] of what happens um when we die and if
[19:38] you can Lev attain a level of Lucidity
[19:41] in your dreams and then even deeper kind
[19:44] of what I refer to as graduate school
[19:47] nighttime practice and what's called
[19:49] Sleep yoga maintaining Lucidity and deep
[19:51] dreamless sleep then really what takes
[19:53] place is an extremely refined and
[19:55] sophisticated understanding and
[19:57] relationship to the nature of one's own
[19:59] mind a level of mind that is not subject
[20:02] to any level of form it's not subject to
[20:05] um this so-called external body it's not
[20:08] even held by the machinations of the
[20:10] subtle body which is what's involved in
[20:13] dream in in the the dreamless state
[20:15] which is again concordant with the death
[20:18] State you drop into What's called the
[20:20] indestructible body and this is really
[20:21] an analog to this deep Divinity that I
[20:23] was alluding to earlier so that deep
[20:26] deep unconscious mind which really when
[20:28] its access is discovered to be
[20:32] superconscious this is in fact a quality
[20:34] of experience that that is not subject
[20:36] to the vicissitudes of time and space
[20:39] it's not subject subject to um form um
[20:43] and that's why dreamless sleep is
[20:45] formless sleep we can develop a
[20:47] relationship to that that's a pretty
[20:50] subtle relationship with our own mind
[20:52] that can bring about a tremendous sense
[20:54] of confidence and understanding as to
[20:57] what possibly might happen when all all
[20:58] these outside forms and situations
[21:01] dissolve as they do every night when we
[21:02] sleep and as they will do a little bit
[21:04] more definitively when we die and
[21:07] therefore you know the great you know
[21:09] one of the great consequences of these
[21:11] practices is developing not only a
[21:14] Fearless attitude towards what happens
[21:16] every night when we go to sleep but much
[21:19] more um kind of profoundly a Fearless
[21:23] attitude toward what happens at the
[21:24] Darkness at the end of our life and this
[21:27] to me you know I mean I've spent many
[21:29] years studying and actually practicing
[21:32] the meditations on G and this is really
[21:35] one of the ways I found myself being
[21:36] involved in dream yoga as a way to
[21:38] supplement my understanding and it has
[21:41] been profoundly transformative for me I
[21:43] mean we'll see what happens when I die
[21:45] um but at this point I have to say
[21:47] because I've developed um a more refined
[21:49] relationship to my own heart mind I
[21:52] don't relate to the end of my life with
[21:54] as much trepidation as I once did so
[21:57] stay tuned and we'll see if that
[21:59] sustains
[22:01] itself I hope
[22:04] so so
[22:07] maybe uh shifting gears a little bit to
[22:11] maybe a more mundane yeah it's good to
[22:13] come back to some of that yeah me you
[22:14] know again just parenthetically sleep
[22:16] yoga and Bardo yoga which is what we are
[22:19] kind of spinning around here a little
[22:20] bit these are um little bit more refined
[22:24] deeper understanding sophistication I
[22:25] think of these practices so I think it
[22:27] would be who to come back and just
[22:29] explore lucid dreaming and dream yoga
[22:31] because for the most part this is much
[22:33] more available to people it's really
[22:35] much more fun it's much more even
[22:37] entertaining so let's uh let's land on
[22:39] that for a few minutes uh yeah it's good
[22:42] to know uh that this goes far and deep
[22:48] and that we can just kind of
[22:51] begin uh somewhere as you mentioned you
[22:54] know um to begin with lucid dreaming and
[22:58] then beginning to actually apply
[23:02] some uh some intention to practice using
[23:07] dream yoga while lucid so we could start
[23:10] by having fun and then get into some
[23:12] practice uh which
[23:14] sounds uh accessible and appealing and
[23:17] that we don't have we're not going to
[23:19] just uh necessarily drop off the deep
[23:22] end on you know night one but we might
[23:25] um one consideration that I wanted to
[23:28] add ask you to speak to
[23:31] is
[23:33] regarding rest yes a lot of us uh lots
[23:39] of work right up to the going to work to
[23:44] preparing to like this and that it's
[23:48] just full of Activity full of work and
[23:50] are some people may think well nighttime
[23:53] yeah that's when I don't have to do
[23:55] anything it's the best right uh is this
[23:59] going to ruin that for People Are People
[24:02] rest what how do you what do you say to
[24:03] that yeah exactly you know no not at all
[24:06] I mean first of all yeah if you're
[24:08] hardcore and it really is worth
[24:10] exploring with kind of you know the
[24:12] extreme I wouldn't say extreme but the
[24:13] deeper aspects you can engage in dream
[24:15] yoga retreats where you do interrupt the
[24:19] Sleep patterns during the night to take
[24:21] advantage of sleep cycles but then you
[24:24] recover that by taking naps during the
[24:26] day generally what I recommend people do
[24:28] is and again this doesn't really disrupt
[24:30] um our rest that much because in the
[24:33] early stages of the night and this is
[24:34] where it's very helpful to understand
[24:36] sleep cycles and and the incredible work
[24:38] of Steven Le this is what I think makes
[24:40] this particular program so unique is
[24:42] that step brings you know a tremendous
[24:46] sophistication from the Western
[24:48] Scientific approach to the dream process
[24:51] altogether and really the great strength
[24:53] of what we do is is as the title of the
[24:55] program Intimates is that we join really
[24:59] the best of the East and The Best of the
[25:00] West and here one aspect of the Best of
[25:03] the West in terms of what the science of
[25:06] the West can contribute here is that if
[25:07] you have an understanding of the sleeve
[25:09] Cycles which is pretty easy to to bring
[25:11] about th is such an expert here we
[25:14] realize that the first part of the night
[25:16] is really dominated by non-rm Sleep um
[25:20] deep restorative sleep and at that point
[25:22] you don't really engage in any of the
[25:25] the dream yoga techniques at all you let
[25:27] the body mind do what it needs to do to
[25:30] establish and reintegrate its rest but
[25:33] what you do do is you take advantage of
[25:36] what I call to was Prime Time dream time
[25:39] which is really um towards the latter
[25:41] phases of the night just before you get
[25:43] up and there are a number of really
[25:44] interesting prac practices and
[25:46] techniques you can do where you engage
[25:48] in this Prime Time dream time because as
[25:50] you go through the night the monre
[25:54] states which are deep restored to sleep
[25:56] are are prominent REM sleep which is
[25:59] rapid eye movement sleep almost
[26:02] synonymous with dreaming but not um
[26:04] entirely so that's 10 when we tend to
[26:07] dream as we go through the night they um
[26:10] switch so in other words as you go
[26:12] through the night your restorative sleep
[26:14] diminishes anyway your non-rem sleep
[26:17] diminishes and your REM sleep increases
[26:20] so as you're going through the night
[26:21] you're getting the restoration and sleep
[26:23] that you need as you progress towards
[26:25] the morning your dreams tend you know
[26:27] the r States get longer longer up to 45
[26:30] minutes really in the last dream cycle
[26:32] of the night this is when you amp up
[26:34] your practices and this is what I do I
[26:36] mean I'm I'm like everybody else I need
[26:38] my sleep I need my rest and I don't
[26:42] really mess with that during the first
[26:43] parts of the night I start to engage in
[26:46] some of these practices you know setting
[26:48] up my alarm and doing certain techniques
[26:50] an hour or so before I would normally
[26:52] get up that really doesn't disrupt my
[26:55] sleep very much at all and then really
[26:57] as you gain some um facility proficiency
[27:00] with these techniques and practices um
[27:03] it's not really going to interfere
[27:04] certainly my experience at all because
[27:06] you're basically going to engage in the
[27:09] Lucidity practices in the space when
[27:11] you're already dreaming anyway you're
[27:13] just simply Lucid when you're doing it
[27:15] so it's not messing with anything that
[27:18] well I shouldn't say that what it's
[27:19] messing with is your unconscious
[27:21] practice of confusion so it's going to
[27:23] mess with that it's going to mess with
[27:26] intentionally mess with that which
[27:28] causes us so much unnecessary suffering
[27:30] but it certainly will not mess with your
[27:32] sleep or it doesn't for me and that's
[27:35] really important to understand because
[27:36] some people may be intimidated by it and
[27:38] they really don't need to be you know
[27:41] really understanding the way the mind
[27:43] and body rest during the first phase of
[27:45] the night and how dreams increases and
[27:46] that progresses so that can help a
[27:50] lot uh that doesn't sound so
[27:54] bad yeah it's generally not
[27:59] um I wonder and I hope this isn't
[28:02] putting you on the spot too much but I
[28:04] wonder if there's anything that you may
[28:05] offer people who are watching or
[28:07] listening to this that they may take
[28:11] into
[28:12] their day or even into their their night
[28:16] of sleep tonight that may um you know
[28:19] maybe for them to uh contemplate that
[28:23] may give some sort of flavor of what um
[28:26] the teachings of practices of dream yoga
[28:29] are about I mean in terms of like lucid
[28:33] dream induction techniques or what to do
[28:34] if you're actually in a lucid dream
[28:36] state or a little bit of
[28:38] both
[28:40] um well I think that I was uh thinking
[28:44] more of and I've um I guess I haven't
[28:47] said this yet but I did a a dream Yoga
[28:49] Retreat with Andrew a few years ago and
[28:52] one thing that we did was um there's
[28:55] like daytime components to to the to the
[28:59] practice and um which I think just serve
[29:03] as like interesting contemplations of of
[29:07] questioning the solidity of uh our
[29:09] waking state which we usually consider
[29:11] to be the real
[29:16] thing the sort
[29:17] of they offer let me say something about
[29:20] that right away Tris because I think
[29:22] this is a really important Point um this
[29:24] is one of the the biggest um
[29:28] differentiating aspects between lucid
[29:30] dreaming and dream yoga is that dream
[29:33] yoga has a a very formidable daytime
[29:36] component in fact sometimes I refer to
[29:38] them as um reciprocating practices which
[29:42] basically are the technical term is
[29:44] bidirectional scientists like that term
[29:46] so what this means is that the the
[29:48] nighttime practices during yoga the
[29:51] daytime practice is the practice of elus
[29:53] re form which is what you were talking
[29:54] about and elus form can be practiced in
[29:57] a number of different ways um one of
[29:59] which is simply to remind yourself as
[30:01] often as you can that this in fact what
[30:03] you seem to perceive is a so-called
[30:06] solid lasting and independent IE
[30:09] dualistic world is in fact is your
[30:12] opening question um alluded to is really
[30:14] just the dream so this is a what's so
[30:18] cool about this kind of reciprocating
[30:20] quality is that the more you do your
[30:23] daytime practice of elus Reform which is
[30:25] really easy and and is really fun
[30:27] there's all kinds of cool things you can
[30:29] do to help you remind yourself that this
[30:32] daytime experience is really highly
[30:35] dreamlike the more proficient you get
[30:38] with your Lucid re form practice which
[30:40] anybody can do you you can never even
[30:42] have a single lucid dream and you can
[30:44] still do Luci form practice however as
[30:49] you get more proficient with your lucier
[30:51] form practice you may find that you get
[30:54] more proficient in your dream yoga
[30:56] practice because there're almost the
[30:58] same practice appli to two different
[31:01] states of Consciousness and then
[31:03] conversely the more proficient you get
[31:06] with your dream yoga practice the more
[31:08] proficient you'll find yourself with
[31:09] your luuc form so they they bootstrap
[31:12] each other they lift each other up and I
[31:15] I really emphasize this point because
[31:18] even if you never have a single lucid
[31:20] dream you can still get to the very
[31:23] essence of what dream yoga is all about
[31:27] through the practice of eluc re form and
[31:30] indeed in in some kind of
[31:32] classifications of these practices dream
[31:35] yoga is actually
[31:36] subsumed under the umbrella of AOS re
[31:39] form in other words a Loos reform is the
[31:41] main practice Green Yoga is is a
[31:44] parenthetical support to that so this is
[31:47] what I really like about these two is
[31:49] that you go back and forth between them
[31:52] strengthening both as as you engage in
[31:54] these and then by really playing with lu
[31:57] during the day once again even if you
[32:00] never have a single lucid dream you will
[32:02] still get to the essence of what dream
[32:05] yoga is all about by challenging the
[32:07] status of this conventional Reality by
[32:11] not taking everything so bloody solidly
[32:14] I mean really if you if you investigate
[32:16] very intimately very closely why it is
[32:20] that you suffer around a particular
[32:23] situation you could argue that a
[32:25] principal ingredient of our suffer
[32:27] uffing is the solidification the
[32:30] reification the taking the contents of
[32:33] your mind to be so solid and real to
[32:36] take this external world to be so solid
[32:40] and real and you could say that your
[32:43] level of suffering is directly
[32:45] proportional to the level of M um
[32:49] reification that you do during the day I
[32:51] mean I know these are big words but
[32:52] they're extremely practical so what we
[32:54] do this is so interesting to me what we
[32:56] do with these practices you could say is
[32:59] that in a in a in one level we try to
[33:02] make and I say this in quotes we try to
[33:06] um strengthen our dreams you could
[33:07] almost say reify we try to make our
[33:10] dream world
[33:12] more
[33:13] powerful as a way to deify or
[33:17] dematerialize our waking world and until
[33:20] you get to the point where really
[33:21] there's fundamentally no difference this
[33:23] is what it means to be awake I mean the
[33:25] Buddha is literally they bodies may go
[33:28] to sleep at night but their mind never
[33:30] turns off there is a subtle 247 level of
[33:34] awareness so for someone who's truly
[33:36] awake there's no fundamental difference
[33:38] between being awake or being asleep and
[33:41] again parenthetically if you take that
[33:42] all the way to the end there's therefore
[33:44] no fundamental difference between
[33:46] sleeping dreaming and dying and being
[33:48] awake you require a level of equinity
[33:52] what we refer to sometimes as one taste
[33:55] it's the same mind expressing itself in
[33:58] all these different venues and what we
[34:01] do with these practices is we come to
[34:03] that Discovery I mean even Steph says so
[34:05] beautifully Steven leberge has an
[34:07] incredible quotation where he says
[34:09] waking consciousness is dreaming
[34:11] Consciousness with sensory constraints
[34:14] dreaming Consciousness is waking
[34:16] consciousness without sensory
[34:17] constraints I mean that's a bit of a
[34:19] heavy one but really it points to this
[34:22] quality that you're simply exploring
[34:25] your mind and your heart in these
[34:27] different Avenues with these different
[34:29] practices and whether you know it or not
[34:33] you are always working with your
[34:35] mind you could say actually more
[34:37] directly if you're not working with it
[34:39] it's working you it's usually working
[34:41] you over so what we do with these
[34:43] practices of luus form dream yoga and
[34:46] really arguably any meditation practices
[34:48] we're simply engaging with our mind more
[34:51] directly we're working with the
[34:53] blueprints of our experience instead of
[34:55] the constructs of our experience and
[34:58] there's no blueprint more profound than
[35:01] the blueprints of these two levels of
[35:03] the unconscious mind that I was talking
[35:04] about earlier know the everything in our
[35:07] manifest world is dictated by what
[35:09] happens in these unconscious levels so
[35:11] if we can bring these unconscious levels
[35:13] of Mind into conscious awareness wake up
[35:16] to them establish a healthy insane
[35:19] relationship to them well that's no
[35:22] small thing you know that's a profound
[35:24] transformation in the way we live our
[35:26] lives that means things still arise
[35:29] thoughts still come about the world
[35:31] continues to manifest in the way that it
[35:33] does but it's no longer so heavy and so
[35:36] serious and so laborious and you and you
[35:38] develop this childlike not um yeah you
[35:42] could say this
[35:44] childlike attitude towards life is um
[35:47] Carefree but not careless is Carefree
[35:50] attitude where you realize the dreamlike
[35:53] qualities of what takes place and and I
[35:56] want to say very quickly there are some
[35:58] Shadow elements to any wisdom teaching
[36:01] and one Shadow element here that we do
[36:03] explore is that if you take this to an
[36:06] extreme you can slide into what um some
[36:09] psychologists and spiritual
[36:10] practitioners refer to as spiritual
[36:12] bypassing where we say well if it's all
[36:14] just a dream it doesn't really matter
[36:16] what I do that's not at all where this
[36:19] goes so what we do is we centrifuge out
[36:21] that shadow element that near enemy from
[36:24] the near friend so we saying that
[36:26] everything is like a dream doesn't
[36:29] automatically have to slide into a
[36:30] nihilistic or or this kind of negative
[36:33] aspect of dismissing the relative
[36:36] realities of this world so I get excited
[36:38] about all the stuff Travis as you can
[36:40] tell because it's a fantastic way to
[36:43] engage a dimension of our experience you
[36:46] know for most people a third of Our
[36:48] Lives that is usually just subject to
[36:51] Total Blackout unconsciousness
[36:53] nothingness so the great gift of these
[36:56] Traditions is so exciting for me is that
[36:58] you can start to now engage these
[37:00] practices you know if you're a serious
[37:02] meditator or someone who's interested in
[37:04] waking up psychologically and
[37:05] spiritually I like to refer to it it's
[37:07] like adding a night shift you know you
[37:09] can now engage in these practices at the
[37:12] highest level is almost
[37:14] 247 and um obviously a lot of people
[37:16] aren't you know that passionate or
[37:19] fanatical about waking up that's
[37:20] completely fine but really at at
[37:23] practical and spiritual levels it allows
[37:25] you to relate to your mind and C at
[37:28] levels that that most people really
[37:30] don't have access to have never really
[37:32] considered and when you gain access and
[37:34] you work with your mind and heart in
[37:36] these ways the the Practical
[37:40] applications and implications are
[37:42] enormous it's a total Game Changer it
[37:45] literally can change the way you relate
[37:47] to everything you're no longer so uncon
[37:51] trapped and things you develop
[37:53] especially with the practice of a reform
[37:55] I sometimes talk about body you develop
[37:58] almost like x-ray
[38:01] eyes develop this kind of superior
[38:03] Vision it gives new kind of impact to
[38:06] the term Insight Meditation because you
[38:09] develop profound insight into the nature
[38:12] of whatever arises and this is really
[38:15] the essence of Liberation you know so
[38:16] again thoughts everything still
[38:18] continues to display thoughts and
[38:20] emotions continue to arise the world
[38:23] continue to manifest the way it does but
[38:26] you're no longer trapped in it the way
[38:28] you once were because you're no longer
[38:30] relating to it in this solid lasting and
[38:32] independent way and you could say this
[38:35] is one way to talk about what it means
[38:37] to wake up you wake up from this
[38:39] dualistic world of solidity into a world
[38:43] that is much more malleable fluid dream
[38:47] like and then a direct um corate to that
[38:51] is an experience of tremendous freedom
[38:53] and Liberation it's as if the Prison
[38:55] Walls have just been dropped away way
[38:58] you develop this delightful Carefree
[38:59] attitude which is characteristic of
[39:01] those in fact who do wake up that's the
[39:04] nature of mind and
[39:05] reality
[39:07] so there you have it yeah there there we
[39:11] have some of it you know and it's uh uh
[39:14] certainly clear to me and probably
[39:16] everybody who's listening this is um
[39:19] just to start to consider some of this
[39:21] stuff is immediately provocative kind of
[39:25] bring the question of
[39:27] uh is this reality dream like what's the
[39:31] what is my dream what is my wakeful
[39:34] experience already as a game shifter
[39:37] yeah and then clearly there's lots
[39:41] behind uh you know this sort of
[39:45] introductory discussion on it and so I
[39:48] wonder if there's anything
[39:51] um before we conclude and sign off that
[39:55] you'd like to say about about the
[39:59] retreat at SMC which is a 5-day Retreat
[40:01] and a lot of time to really like get
[40:04] into this more um a great opportunity to
[40:10] experience
[40:11] some uh some game changing I know if
[40:16] there you've said a lot about like what
[40:18] um about dream yoga and that clearly
[40:21] there's some there practices nighttime
[40:23] practices daytime practices that will be
[40:26] introduced then uh you're teaching with
[40:29] Steven Lear who you've uh mentioned
[40:33] anything else that you'd want to say
[40:35] about the retreat you know what people
[40:37] can expect before yeah thanks for that
[40:40] opportunity Travis first of all it's
[40:41] really fun I mean you know I talked with
[40:43] Stephen before in Hawaii and he's an
[40:46] absolute Jewel he's really arguably the
[40:49] father of Luci the dreaming in the
[40:51] Western World he's a Monumental force in
[40:53] this in this field I have utmost respect
[40:56] for him and he he practices what he
[40:58] preaches he's utterly delightful to work
[41:01] with he's brilliant as all get out very
[41:04] funny guy um and I just love working
[41:07] with them and what we do this you know
[41:09] we engage in our own
[41:11] presentations um he concentrates a
[41:14] little bit more on the so-called Western
[41:15] end me a little bit more on the Eastern
[41:17] end but we both have a a pretty deep
[41:20] understanding of each other's fields and
[41:23] at the same time as we definitely
[41:25] augment and support each other we also
[41:27] challenge each other in I think really
[41:29] fun ways he doesn't get allow me to get
[41:32] away with any metaphysical mumbo jumbo
[41:35] um I might call him in some of you know
[41:37] his Western
[41:39] Scientific approaches but basically what
[41:42] comes out of the whole thing is a is a
[41:44] delightful
[41:45] opportunity um to explore mind and
[41:49] reality in a way that's very
[41:52] profound very practical that's the other
[41:55] thing I really want to emphasize it
[41:56] might it might seem initially you know a
[41:58] little bit like esoteric even wildly so
[42:02] but my experience with these things for
[42:04] over 20 years of of serious practice is
[42:08] that the Practical implications of these
[42:11] things are are absolutely enormous it
[42:14] will change the way you relate to your
[42:16] emotional upheavals it will change the
[42:18] way you relate to anything that would
[42:21] bring about this heaviness in our lives
[42:24] there are so many applications to this
[42:26] and this is what will explore over the
[42:28] course of these five days there's so
[42:29] many ways that you can use these
[42:32] practices to immediately improve your
[42:35] life and that to me is what makes it so
[42:37] terribly exciting and all the while we
[42:40] engage not only in um dialogues like
[42:44] this presentations dactic presentations
[42:47] but really most compellingly is we work
[42:49] with meditations we work very gently
[42:52] with Rays to engage some of these
[42:54] induction methods and then what takes
[42:57] place and like what do you actually do
[42:59] when you're doing dream yoga what are
[43:01] the actual yogas we go through those
[43:04] it's a very rich world that joins the
[43:07] East and West um inner and outer
[43:10] psychology and
[43:12] spirituality so there's a lot that
[43:14] really comes to fruition in a program
[43:16] like this I have to say for me it's such
[43:18] an honor to work with Ken and his I'm
[43:21] I'm sorry Stephen and his support staff
[43:23] Keen Kristen um it's just a real Delight
[43:26] for me to present this material in the
[43:29] context of someone like Stephen and what
[43:32] he brings to this so I'm really excited
[43:35] about it I have to tell you I mean we've
[43:36] been talking about doing this for a
[43:37] number of years now to actually finally
[43:40] make it happen is a really cool
[43:43] thing well well excited here too uh I'll
[43:47] be participating so I've been looking
[43:48] forward to it and uh just always a joy
[43:52] to and great honor to host um t teachers
[43:56] like yourself and Steven Lear as well as
[44:00] uh all the wonderful people that will be
[44:02] joining us so uh very much looking
[44:05] forward to all of you coming up for a
[44:09] for a nice long
[44:11] stay and it's just uh little less than a
[44:16] month away as I mentioned August well I
[44:19] guess we're about three weeks now August
[44:21] 20th to the
[44:23] 25th and the program once again
[44:27] is awaken in your dreams lucid dream
[44:29] Yoga East and West and you can learn
[44:33] more about the
[44:34] program and register for the program by
[44:37] going to our website shalam mountain.org
[44:41] and if you click on our blog and scroll
[44:44] down you can find more interviews like
[44:47] this so uh thank you all very much for
[44:51] tuning in and watching or listening and
[44:55] or and uh Andrew thank you again so much
[44:58] for uh for taking the time today to have
[45:02] this discussion and to offer uh you know
[45:05] a glimpse into the dream yoga world and
[45:08] also for your
[45:10] ongoing deep teaching that you offer so
[45:13] many people thank you it's my pleasure
[45:16] and I look forward to seeing you thank
[45:17] you all the
[45:19] best okay we'll see you
[45:25] soon