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Inspiration

Curiosity Over Passion: RedefiningCreative Success Beyond Competition

Elizabeth Gilbert
Elizabeth Gilbert
Jun 13, 2016
9 min de lectura
Ver · 7

At fifteen, sitting on a basketball court in the final minutes of a high school game, Elizabeth Gilbert had a quietly radical thought: she could not understand why it mattered which team won. All the players on the opposing side could have been her friends had she been born in their town. The accident of geography had made them competitors, but something inside her rejected the logic of it. That moment crystallized a distinction that would shape her entire creative life—a difference between competitiveness, which demands you beat everyone at everything, and ambition, which asks only that you become the highest version of yourself.

This is not a small thing to recognize, especially for someone who would go on to write Eat Pray Love, a memoir that sold over 10 million copies worldwide, spent years on the New York Times bestseller list, and made its author so famous that Time Magazine named her one of the 100 most influential people in the world. By any measure, Gilbert had won. Yet her refusal to fuse her sense of self-worth with winning—something she identified as early as that high school basketball game—would become the very thing that allowed her to survive that massive success without being consumed by it.

Leer · 7 secciones

The Architecture of Ambition Without Ego

Gilbert grew up in what she describes as "a really competitive family," the kind where board games turned into blood sports and the stakes felt existential. "Everything was a competition," she recalls. But somewhere in that environment, she recognized something dangerous: the way competitiveness could colonize every moment, turn every interaction into a zero-sum game, demand constant vigilance and self-protection. She watched it happen around her and opted out. "I just felt like this feels slightly dangerous to me," she says. The work of managing perpetual competitiveness seemed "too much work, and too much at stake for everything."

What she chose instead was ambition—but a specific kind. Not the ambition to beat others or climb a ladder relative to someone else's position, but the ambition to discover what the best writing she could possibly create might be. This distinction kept her from the corrosive habit of tracking rankings. Yes, she felt joy when Eat Pray Love first hit the bestseller list, that human pleasure of external validation. But she didn't spend Saturday mornings refreshing her spot on the charts. When someone else eventually took her place at number one, she felt no sting of displacement, no resentment. Her work had done what she meant it to do. His work was doing what his work meant to do. The list was a fact, not a referendum.

This stance might sound like detachment or false humility, but Gilbert's reasoning is more precise. She learned from her friend Sarah Jones, a performance artist and Tony Award winner, a metaphor for creative work: "There's a highway that I have to be on to do this work," Jones described it, "and along that Highway there's any number of detours." Every question that pulls you away from the actual work—Will this win? Will my agent be able to sell it? Will people want this? Is this what the market is calling for?—is a detour off the highway. Competitiveness doesn't just corrupt the work; it actively removes you from the conditions under which the best work can happen.

The Collapse of "Follow Your Passion"

For years, the cultural advice was unambiguous: find your passion and pursue it. Gilbert heard this constantly, and she had a problem with it. A young woman once posted on her Facebook wall, essentially, "I'm trying to find my passion, but I can't find it. What do I do?" Gilbert's response cut straight through the confusion: "Stop looking for your passion. Follow your curiosity instead."

The distinction matters because passion is often framed as an overwhelming force—something that seizes you, something you must obey or be unfaithful to your true self. Curiosity, by contrast, is quieter and more navigable. It arrives not as a thunderbolt but as what Gilbert calls "a series of tiny whispered invitations." You notice something that catches your attention. You follow it a little way. You see where it leads. Then another small thread appears, and you follow that. Over time, these whispered invitations accumulate into the shape of a life and a body of work that feels genuinely yours, not borrowed from some idea of who you're supposed to be.

This matters especially for people trapped in the "follow your passion" paradox—those who can't identify an overwhelming sense of calling, or who have multiple interests that don't cohere into a singular destiny narrative. Curiosity offers an alternative path. It's not less serious or less committed. It's just permission to trust the small signals, the quiet attraction, the thing you find yourself reading about at midnight when no one is watching.

Managing Fear at the Scale of Success

Success doesn't eliminate fear; it reorganizes it. When you have a massive platform and a global audience, the stakes of your work feel different. Every project becomes a referendum on your worthiness. Will you be able to repeat the success? Can you justify the attention you've already received? Gilbert speaks directly to this: "Zero is where you start," and from there you build. But once you've built something big—once you've gotten the acclaim and the praise and the money—you're playing a different game. The fear changes shape. It becomes less about "Will I be discovered?" and more about "Will I disappoint the people who are already paying attention?"

She describes a particularly painful period when she felt anxious about her work in ways she hadn't before, ways that manifested as physical tension, insecurity, panic. Rob Bell, her collaborator and friend, offered her a reframe: "What Rob always calls the action is here," she explains. Not in your anxiety. Not in your thoughts about what people will think. Here—in the present moment, in the actual work in front of you, in the room where you're sitting. This is where the creative action actually happens. Everything else is a ghost story you're telling yourself.

This pivot—from managing the fear itself to relocating attention to where creation actually occurs—is a profound intervention. It doesn't make fear disappear. It just stops treating fear as the thing you need to solve before you can work. You work, and fear is there, and neither fact changes the other.

Giving Attention Rather Than Getting It

There's a reversal of energy that happens in mature creative work, and Gilbert names it carefully: the difference between giving your attention and getting attention. The anxiety about getting attention—about platform, about reach, about visibility—can become its own kind of trap, its own detour off the highway. But the work that endures tends to come from people who are focused on giving their attention to the thing they're making. Not to the marketplace. Not to critics. Not to the algorithmic appetite that devours content. To the work itself.

This reorientation becomes visible in how she approaches an event or a conversation. When she meets someone, she's not performing her importance or managing her image. She's present. She's listening. She's giving her actual attention. The Oprah tour, where she shared a bus with Rob Bell, Deepak Chopra, and other teachers and writers, was instructive: she watched Rob work a room and conduct people's spirits like a conductor, not because he was chasing their approval but because he was fully present with each person. That kind of presence is what creates real connection, and it's the opposite of the scramble for visibility.

The Necessity of Off-Season

Gilbert emphasizes something that modern culture of constant productivity tends to dismiss: the necessity of an off-season. Artists, she argues, aren't meant to perform at peak output year-round. You create in seasons. Then you rest. Then you create again. This isn't laziness or lack of ambition. It's an understanding of how creative energy actually works—that you need the fallow period to let soil regenerate, that you need time away from the spotlight to remember who you are when no one is watching.

For someone who wrote a book that defined a generation's search for meaning, that became a cultural phenomenon, off-season was essential to survival. It was the space where she could remember that her worth wasn't determined by rankings, that the book was in the world now doing its work, that she was still a person with curiosities and questions that had nothing to do with whether Eat Pray Love stayed on the bestseller list.

The Shadow Work of Becoming

Underlying much of this is what Gilbert calls "shadow work"—the internal reckoning with who you actually are versus who you thought you should be, what you're afraid of, what you envy or resent in others. She's explicit about this: we all inherit certain patterns, certain unmet needs, certain shadows from our families and our cultures. The work of creative maturity includes looking at that material honestly. Rob Bell says it plainly: "Whatever your parents didn't give you, you'll be trying to get from the world." If you're aware of that pattern, you can choose differently. If you're not, you'll keep trying to fill an unfillable hole through external achievement, recognition, validation.

The difference between conscious ambition and unconscious competitiveness often comes down to whether you've done this shadow work. Have you examined where your drive actually comes from? Is it truly coming from a desire to make your best work, or is it coming from a need to prove something to someone, to fill a wound, to be finally, finally enough?

Where to go from here

Gilbert's conversation with Lewis Howes isn't a blueprint so much as it is permission—permission to stop chasing passion you can't find and start following curiosity you can feel. Permission to distinguish between healthy ambition and corrosive competitiveness. Permission to care more about the work than the ranking, more about being present than getting attention, more about who you're becoming than who you're beating. Permission to take an off-season. Permission to do the shadow work that might explain why you're so hungry for external validation in the first place.

The fact that someone who achieved massive commercial and cultural success arrived at these conclusions not as a consolation prize—something to tell herself because she couldn't keep winning—but as a hard-won philosophy forged in her teens and tested through her thirties and beyond, suggests these aren't humble brags or false perspective. They're real coordinates for how to sustain a creative life over the long term. Not in spite of success, but in a way that makes real success—work that matters, a self that feels whole—actually possible.

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Transcript

[0:04] welcome everyone back to the school of

[0:06] grain's podcast very excited about our

[0:08] guest it's not Elizabeth it's Liz

[0:10] Gilbert thanks for coming on Hello

[0:12] darling good to see you it's good to see

[0:13] you I've been uh emailing you for about

[0:16] a year now trying to make this happen so

[0:18] we finally I was persistent enough

[0:20] finally made it happen to the

[0:22] restraining orders exactly didn't even

[0:24] sign when I served you papers it's

[0:26] amazing I just finally gave up and here

[0:27] I am and I'm super grateful exactly Bell

[0:30] was like you got to have Liz on sometime

[0:33] about a year ago he was like you got to

[0:34] get her on and so I was like can you

[0:35] make the intro and so we made it happen

[0:37] so I'm really glad you're here in the

[0:39] studio in La awesome Rob is our is our

[0:42] shared brother I know he's amazing yep

[0:44] he's incredible uh and you guys are

[0:45] doing a workshop tomorrow actually which

[0:47] will this will be afterwards that it

[0:48] comes out but um do you guys do a lot of

[0:50] work together workshops and speeches no

[0:52] this is the first thing we've ever done

[0:54] I mean we've we met on to drop a name on

[0:56] the Oprah tour no big deal perhaps

[0:59] you've heard of her um and I had you

[1:02] know we hadn't known each other before

[1:03] that so we did this8 City stadium tour

[1:06] together where we were totally the

[1:09] youngest brother and sister on the

[1:11] family bus ride definitely Amy py was

[1:13] there too right uh no Amy wasn't there

[1:16] oh yeah am party yes of course sorry I

[1:17] was thinking of Amy Cy um yeah Amy was

[1:19] there she just I just had her on the

[1:20] other day fantastic yeah she's great um

[1:23] you know deepok was there aming um El of

[1:26] his a bunch of All Star no big deal it

[1:28] was it was fantastic and I got to watch

[1:31] Rob eight times in a row give a speech

[1:34] that just you know what he does he's

[1:37] amazing like just brought everyone up

[1:40] and then down and then back up and then

[1:42] it was like just watching a conductor

[1:45] work with people's Spirits it was

[1:46] beautiful it was absolutely beautiful

[1:48] yeah he's amazing I had him speak at my

[1:50] uh book launch party I had him open up

[1:51] for me uhuh and just at Wonder L where

[1:54] you guys are going to be doing a

[1:55] workshop actually tomorrow and it was

[1:56] like blew me away so so cool um and I'll

[1:59] be there on Tuesday night are you going

[1:59] to be here Tuesday for his thing no

[2:01] you'll be gone okay cool yeah anyways

[2:03] great guy um but the first question I

[2:05] want to ask you since you just asked me

[2:06] to ask you this we were talking about

[2:08] competitiveness right and you said um

[2:11] there's a difference between

[2:12] competitiveness and ambition right so

[2:14] can you talk about those yeah because

[2:16] you were talking about being very

[2:17] competitive and I'm I am actually not a

[2:20] compeer um I'm not a competitive person

[2:22] but I'm a very ambitious person it's

[2:23] taken me years to recognize how I

[2:26] discern a difference between those two

[2:27] words and they are sometimes overlapping

[2:30] but not always um I think it's rare to

[2:32] be one without the other um but in my

[2:35] case I'm definitely ambitious so to me

[2:38] competitive means I will beat you at

[2:41] everything from thumb wrestling to like

[2:44] who can cross the street faster to who

[2:46] can drink this coffee faster to who can

[2:48] like at whatever the thing is I will

[2:50] beat I must there's only one rule which

[2:53] is what they used to who is the um the

[2:54] horse that they used to say only had one

[2:56] rule and that was that she had to win um

[2:58] that's it that's the only rule of

[2:59] competitiveness right and ambition which

[3:01] is interconnected but can also be

[3:03] distinct means I

[3:06] will be the very highest possible

[3:09] version of myself that I can be and it

[3:12] doesn't have that much to do with what

[3:14] anybody else is doing um you know and so

[3:18] for me the ambition is what is the best

[3:21] writing that I can do and and that's why

[3:24] I don't spend a lot of time looking

[3:26] at it is nice if you can win rankings is

[3:30] and stuff it's so you didn't look when

[3:31] you were like 10 years on the New York

[3:32] Times list it didn't you weren't looking

[3:34] at the list I was so happy when it first

[3:36] like when it first hit there but then no

[3:38] I didn't spend every Saturday morning

[3:40] opening up the where am I now am I and

[3:43] and and I wanted to and it's also yes

[3:45] but that felt like a Personal

[3:46] Achievement but I don't resent the

[3:48] person who then took my spot um you know

[3:50] when my time was over and somebody else

[3:52] became number one I wasn't

[3:54] like it kills me to see somebody else at

[3:57] that position besides me you know um

[3:59] like that doesn't

[4:00] I have I come from a really competitive

[4:02] family and I think from an early age I

[4:05] just felt like this feels slightly

[4:07] dangerous to me um how much everybody

[4:10] cares about beating everybody at

[4:12] everything um I can't even join that

[4:16] sure sure this just feels like too much

[4:19] work right and too much at stake for

[4:22] everything like we're playing you guys

[4:24] we're playing old ma right like it

[4:26] doesn't have to be a Blood Sport you

[4:28] know but but it kind of was Monopoly

[4:30] people are like slaming the God you have

[4:32] no idea Louis you know like everything

[4:35] you know so I think I just opted out of

[4:38] and I was more focused on you know what

[4:41] do I want to be and what do I want to

[4:42] become and and those Ambitions extend

[4:44] for me Beyond just my writing career and

[4:47] into sort of my personal Ambitions for

[4:49] what kind of a person do I want to be

[4:51] what if it's a an athlete or someone

[4:53] that play you know it's great to say

[4:55] well just be the best version of

[4:57] yourself and don't focus on winning

[4:59] focus on whatever being the best but

[5:01] then you're losing all the time that's

[5:03] not going to make you feel that great if

[5:04] you're an athlete playing there's a

[5:06] winner and a loser you know what I mean

[5:07] I would imagine if you are an athlete at

[5:09] a level where it matters um you will not

[5:12] be like me right I mean I mean that's

[5:15] why I'm not an athlete I me and it's I

[5:17] mean I would not suggest that anybody

[5:19] who has any skin in the game in any

[5:20] athletic Endeavor approach life the way

[5:23] that I do because what you need is to I

[5:25] mean look I'll tell you Louis I played

[5:27] Sports I was not bad at sports I played

[5:29] Sports and all through high school I was

[5:31] a letter winner from freshman year in

[5:33] three sports like but and I loved the

[5:35] camaraderie and the teams I love being

[5:37] on the bus yeah you know I loved being

[5:39] outside in the weather I loved all of it

[5:41] except the competitiveness of it and I

[5:43] remember vividly being in a the end of a

[5:45] basketball game and just having this

[5:48] really existential thought I was 15

[5:49] years old and I remember thinking as I'm

[5:52] just like booking up the court thinking

[5:55] I truly do not understand why it matters

[5:59] which one of these these teams wins I

[6:01] like literally do not understand and all

[6:02] I could think was if I went to shog high

[6:05] school the other school we were playing

[6:07] all these girls would be my friends so

[6:10] why do I care if I beat them because if

[6:12] I was if I were born there then I'd be

[6:14] playing against us you do not want that

[6:17] person on your team leis somebody who

[6:20] thinks like that is not a clutch player

[6:23] you know like that is not an athletes

[6:25] way of thinking you know unless you're a

[6:26] marathon but even then you want to win

[6:28] your Marathon um so would so that's the

[6:31] moment at which I realized that athletic

[6:33] Endeavor was probably not a future for

[6:35] me right right Artistry was probably a

[6:37] better place competitive writing is not

[6:39] either it's it's about being creating

[6:41] your best work that's the idea and the

[6:43] best work kind of Rises to the top

[6:45] essentially hopefully right well and I

[6:46] do think this too I think that um my

[6:48] friend Sarah Jones who's a performance

[6:50] artist who's W you know Tony's and and

[6:53] just fantastic she has a beautiful way

[6:56] of expressing this that she said at the

[6:57] beginning of any creative endeavor

[7:00] there's a highway that I have to be on

[7:01] this is her words not mine I'm

[7:02] paraphrasing she said there's a highway

[7:04] that I have to be on to do this work and

[7:08] along that Highway there's any number of

[7:10] detours and anytime I find myself asking

[7:13] questions such as am I going to be able

[7:15] to win a Tony with this is my agent

[7:17] going to be able to sell this are people

[7:19] going to want this is the audience going

[7:21] to respond to this is this the right

[7:22] kind of work is this what the market is

[7:24] calling for is that she said all of

[7:25] those questions are detours off the

[7:28] highway that I need to be on and any of

[7:30] those questions that I start asking

[7:32] myself at the beginning of a creative

[7:33] journey is going to take me right off

[7:34] that Highway and into this same

[7:35] neighborhood every time and that's in

[7:37] ghetto where they're going to take the

[7:38] hubc Caps off my car and beat me and

[7:40] leave me for dead because it's going to

[7:41] leave me asking the wrong questions and

[7:44] the only question at the beginning of

[7:45] this creative Endeavor is does the

[7:47] thought of making this Illuminate Me

[7:50] Ignite Me make me feel like I can't wait

[7:52] to get up in the morning and give

[7:54] meaning to a life that is otherwise

[7:55] often very difficult if the answer is

[7:57] yes then I'm on the right Road you know

[7:58] um and anything else and any other

[8:00] reason you know um also puts you in I

[8:04] think Hungry Ghost category which is

[8:07] when is it enough you know I was on the

[8:09] I was number one New York Times best

[8:11] seller for a year if all I cared about

[8:14] in my life was being at the top there

[8:17] was a day that came when I wasn't that

[8:19] anymore and that would have been a very

[8:22] bad day for me instead of me being like

[8:25] this journey is amazing and now what am

[8:27] I going to make you know when I wrote

[8:28] the book that came after love my book

[8:31] committed which I still really like that

[8:33] book sold one

[8:35] 1000 of the copies of e pre love if I

[8:37] were somebody who only had to win and I

[8:39] saw that chart that's a plug committed

[8:42] suicide that is a bad chart like that's

[8:44] the opposite of up and to the right

[8:45] that's like a stark and instead I was

[8:48] like I like that book that's I'm I still

[8:51] like that book and now what now what do

[8:53] I want to make you know um because I

[8:56] think you can't stay there you can even

[8:59] get there you know say you're I had this

[9:01] woman write to me this young woman who

[9:02] said I don't think I should be made to

[9:04] feel a shame that I want to be don't

[9:06] just want to be an actress I want to be

[9:07] a great actress I want to be a famous

[9:09] actress and I want to win Awards and I

[9:10] said no one should make you feel ashamed

[9:12] for that I wanted to all those things in

[9:14] writing but just know that if that is

[9:16] your only motivation for doing this

[9:19] satisfaction will never be in your hand

[9:21] yeah because even if let's take it to

[9:24] the top even if you win an Oscar what

[9:27] happens the next year when someone else

[9:29] does yeah right so let sure be ambitious

[9:33] want everything no problem but if you

[9:34] don't have a soul reason to do it you

[9:37] only have an egoo reason to do it then

[9:39] you're setting yourself up for a life of

[9:41] suffering where you will never have

[9:43] enough yeah and someone will always be

[9:46] on your neck coming up behind you and

[9:48] you will never know when to rest in

[9:50] contentment and that just sounds like

[9:51] hell to me yeah it's interesting I was

[9:54] listening to your interview with or not

[9:56] interview but your Super Soul sessions

[9:59] where talked about discovering your

[10:01] passion and how you Liv the life of

[10:03] passion you used to tell people passion

[10:05] passion go find it go follow it Go

[10:07] pursue it um and you said that there was

[10:10] a woman that wrote you a letter talked

[10:11] about how she didn't just know her

[10:14] passion yeah or her passion changes or

[10:17] you know it comes and goes um can you

[10:20] talk about that in regards to what we

[10:21] were just covering yeah I mean I've

[10:24] always had the great Good Fortune of

[10:26] knowing what I love um and I love

[10:29] writing and so my life has been really

[10:30] simple that's all I do that's kind of

[10:32] the definition of a passion right I know

[10:34] it makes your life really easy knew what

[10:35] you wanted I knew what I wanted I liked

[10:37] it I didn't really like you magazines

[10:39] right you wrote short stories very clear

[10:41] it's like this is it here's the path

[10:43] everything else can take a number right

[10:45] like that's always been really obvious

[10:46] to me and so it's also been very obvious

[10:49] to me to go around telling people just

[10:51] do that like you know that thing that

[10:53] you love more than anything just do that

[10:55] right right right like it just seemed

[10:56] like the easiest it seems like good

[10:57] advice and even kind advice right and so

[11:00] after R Pray Love came out I started

[11:02] kind of professionally saying that going

[11:04] on stages and telling people just find

[11:06] your passion do your passion blah blah

[11:07] blah passion passion and then one day I

[11:10] did an event in Australia and when I got

[11:12] back there was a long letter on my wall

[11:13] on my Facebook wall from a young woman

[11:15] who said you know I came I came to your

[11:17] event looking for inspiration and I have

[11:18] to tell you I'm sitting alone in the

[11:20] dark in my room and I've never felt

[11:21] worse about myself than I feel right now

[11:24] because all I've been doing is trying to

[11:26] figure out what that thing is that

[11:27] you're talking about and I'm telling you

[11:29] I don't have one in the way that you

[11:31] define it as that thing that makes you

[11:33] feel like your hair is on fire that you

[11:35] would sacrifice anything for and it's

[11:37] not for lack of looking and it's not for

[11:39] lack of people and people like you are

[11:41] constantly saying to people like me that

[11:43] this is the answer and I and I just feel

[11:46] like a loser and a failure and that I'm

[11:48] interested in a lot of things but

[11:50] nothing that I would die for nothing

[11:52] that I would give my all life for so I

[11:56] know you didn't mean to but you just

[11:59] made me feel feel like the biggest

[12:00] failure and loser in the world and it

[12:02] was such a head turning thing for me

[12:05] leis cuz I was like how many people have

[12:07] I done that to you know and I started

[12:09] thinking about all the people who I know

[12:11] and love and asking myself how many of

[12:13] them could truly say as I can that from

[12:16] the time they were like basically six

[12:19] they had no question about what they

[12:21] were supposed to be doing with their Liv

[12:23] zero but statistically zero maybe a

[12:25] couple but very few yeah and everybody

[12:27] else I know including people who I

[12:30] admire and who I go to when I'm broken

[12:32] down and I want advice like I everyone

[12:34] else's path has looked like a path

[12:37] through a Carnival Fun House you know

[12:39] like trick mirrors and trap doors like

[12:42] um and and trying this and it not quite

[12:44] working and trying that and doing this

[12:46] and so I was realizing like we preach

[12:48] this passion thing in an almost

[12:50] fundamentalist way you know but and I'm

[12:54] a jackhammer when I there's something

[12:56] that I care about and want to do I'm

[12:58] fully focused but what if what if

[13:01] everyone was what a weird and boring

[13:02] world that would be right and so I've

[13:04] now sort of distinguished my mind

[13:06] between what I call Jackhammer and what

[13:07] I call hummingbirds and the hummingbirds

[13:09] are people who

[13:10] cross-pollinate the World by just moving

[13:13] from field to field and pursuit and

[13:15] pursuit and taking ideas from one place

[13:17] and bringing them to another and mixing

[13:18] it up and they're not as they don't get

[13:20] as much attention and credit as

[13:22] Jackhammer because they're not as loud

[13:23] as us leis that's true nothing louder

[13:26] than a jackhammer like once we get going

[13:28] we sort of don't shut up you know and

[13:31] hummingbirds they're beautiful and so it

[13:33] was just this idea there's other ways to

[13:35] be you don't have to be the way that I

[13:38] am f a box or fit in a one yeah and

[13:39] don't let if you don't look if you have

[13:41] a passion of course do it if you don't

[13:43] happen to have one don't worry about it

[13:45] and maybe there's a gentler answer which

[13:46] is follow your curiosity um which is a

[13:49] smaller impulse and a lighter one and a

[13:51] less high stakes one than passion and

[13:53] you don't mortgage your whole house to

[13:55] go follow your curiosity you just try it

[13:57] for a weekend maybe you like it maybe

[13:59] it's something maybe it's not maybe in

[14:01] the end you kind of embroider a very

[14:03] complex beautiful Patchwork life for

[14:05] yourself and at the end of your life

[14:07] maybe you're not at the top of the Heap

[14:08] but you're able to say I did the most

[14:11] interesting thing a human being can do

[14:13] which is to to follow this slight pollen

[14:17] trail of my inquisitiveness for the

[14:18] entirety of my life and through that I

[14:20] cross-pollinated the world and created a

[14:22] beautiful work of art of my own

[14:23] existence that's not so bad you know but

[14:26] it doesn't get a lot of credit in a

[14:28] really competitive pass

[14:30] passion fetishizing Society I get it I

[14:33] get it I guess in that analogy I

[14:34] consider myself like a humming Hammer

[14:37] maybe you know what I mean like uh and I

[14:40] look at I look at everything as Seasons

[14:41] like in the Sports World there's a

[14:44] preseason the SE the regular

[14:47] season the the playoff season then the

[14:49] postseason right right just like in life

[14:51] there's Four Seasons Four Seasons to

[14:52] every sport right and uh you know do

[14:55] them again preseason there's the

[14:56] preseason there's the the season the

[14:58] regular season the play offseason and

[15:00] the Poston postseason okay um and I you

[15:04] know you I prepare myself I go all in on

[15:06] this sport for one season right the

[15:08] preseason we're training mode four or

[15:09] five hours a day getting ready for the

[15:11] regular season then grinding it out then

[15:13] try to make the playoffs season then the

[15:15] playoffs you try to win the championship

[15:17] then afterwards you evaluate in this

[15:19] moment like okay did I fully love this

[15:21] season do I still love this sport this

[15:24] be do I still love writing do I still

[15:25] love this career path I'm on and then in

[15:27] the postseason I reeval

[15:30] do I want to cross pollinate somewhere

[15:31] else and try my curiosity some another

[15:33] sport or another thing or do I go into

[15:36] another preseason right or postseason to

[15:38] lead up to the same sport do you leave

[15:40] you know it's so funny because I always

[15:41] talk about my writing as seasonal as

[15:42] well but coming from a farm background I

[15:44] think of it as agricultural season sure

[15:46] um including Seasons where you leave the

[15:48] field fallow um so that the ground can

[15:51] restore itself yeah Seasons where you

[15:53] don't work um so that you don't

[15:56] overstress sure the uh you know Rob

[15:58] talks about that too lot about like yeah

[16:00] you got to take a break you got to take

[16:02] a break yeah just not train so

[16:04] interesting yeah but I like that it's I

[16:07] like that you Ed that word too because I

[16:08] use that but now I'm going to say I'm in

[16:10] postseason right now from my last book

[16:12] go postseason is just like you're taking

[16:13] a break you're evaluating you're you

[16:14] work on your injuries you recover yeah

[16:17] you heal you heal that's what it is you

[16:19] heal because it's a lot of work you know

[16:21] if Tom Brady um are you a big NFL fan I

[16:24] am a big enough NFL fan to be able to

[16:26] follow along with where you're going

[16:27] what Tom Brady is I do know what Tom

[16:28] Brady is if Tom Brady was playing a SE a

[16:32] game every weekend for the last 15 years

[16:35] he'd be broken down yeah he needs that

[16:37] three months to recover and whatever do

[16:38] whatever he does with Jazelle around the

[16:40] world and travel and it think of new

[16:42] ways to be a

[16:43] jerk I'm met him he actually pretty nice

[16:46] guy pretty nice guy I met him um he's

[16:50] he's one of the most focused guys I've

[16:51] ever met yes he is he is committed to

[16:53] ordinary at his job so good at his job

[16:56] um so anyways yeah he could work on

[16:58] being a better sport but that's all

[16:59] right you know attitude we all have our

[17:02] personality you should talk to you

[17:03] should talk to them about

[17:05] that we all have our own

[17:07] personality sorry Tom if you're

[17:09] listening to this you're very handsome

[17:11] and talented man he is yeah um but it's

[17:15] interesting because I got a lot of

[17:16] people that ask me you know how do I

[17:17] find my passion but I like your response

[17:19] to it it's like maybe just find what

[17:21] you're curious about right now you know

[17:23] my thing is if you have one you'll know

[17:25] it right so you shouldn't if you have

[17:26] one you won't even be asking that

[17:28] because you're already doing it if you

[17:29] don't have one take the pressure of that

[17:33] word off your it's just such a pressure

[17:35] word and and just keep going back to the

[17:38] word curiosity because you do have that

[17:41] yeah you know um and and the thing about

[17:43] curiosity that I think is interesting is

[17:45] how underestimated it is

[17:47] because I think a lot of the times

[17:49] people are missing their their

[17:51] invitations there are all these

[17:52] invitations for transformation and for

[17:54] creativity they're missing them because

[17:56] their eyes are in the wrong place so

[17:58] their eyes are in the sky

[17:59] looking for the clouds to part they're

[18:01] looking for Moses to come down with like

[18:03] you know tablets they're looking for the

[18:05] voice of God they're looking for the big

[18:07] sign because they think that that's how

[18:10] it comes and in fact it's your eyes have

[18:13] to be on the ground looking for the

[18:16] almost invisible trail of breadcrumbs

[18:19] that's the path right and so the

[18:21] breadcrumbs are all around you and

[18:22] people aren't even their focus isn't

[18:24] there it's up in the heavens like

[18:26] where's my sign where's my sign and the

[18:28] other way that curi comes I think is

[18:30] that tiny little

[18:31] almost almost imperceptible tap on the

[18:35] shoulder that asks you if you would

[18:38] please turn your head an eighth of an

[18:40] inch and look a little closer at this

[18:41] thing that you're barely interested in

[18:44] just have the most mild

[18:46] little touch of interest and I feel like

[18:50] people are getting those touches all the

[18:52] time and they're brushing off their

[18:54] shoulders

[18:55] like why are they brushing it because

[18:57] they don't think it's for them ific

[19:00] because it doesn't seem big or important

[19:02] enough um and as soon as that little tap

[19:04] comes and if you even bother to turn

[19:06] your head and E inch and look at it more

[19:09] closely in that moment you're like this

[19:11] isn't a thing yeah this is nothing this

[19:13] is like so small and so insignificant

[19:16] but it is a thing it's the first clue on

[19:18] the scavenger hunt it's the first

[19:20] breadcrumb and the I think the

[19:23] foremost sort of shape of my entire

[19:26] creative Journey has been about being

[19:28] really trusting of that you know like I

[19:30] don't know why I'm interested in this I

[19:33] don't even know what this means right

[19:35] now but I'm going to trust that that's

[19:38] an invitation or the beginning of an

[19:39] invitation and and then I'm going to

[19:41] look for the next tiny little tap and

[19:43] the next you know breadcrumb and so it's

[19:45] not my life hasn't been a series of

[19:47] thunderous epiphanies it's been a a

[19:49] series of tiny whispered invitations

[19:52] every single one of them that I've heard

[19:54] I've said okay let me check this out a

[19:56] little more all right let's check it out

[19:57] and sometimes it's nothing sometimes

[19:59] it's not a thing you know um but it's

[20:01] never wasted yeah you know um so I think

[20:05] there's a wonderful thing I saw recently

[20:06] don't ask for a sign and then ignore it

[20:08] when it comes but I think people don't

[20:10] even know it is one because it doesn't

[20:12] look like the ones in the movies yeah or

[20:14] the ones in the speeches that people

[20:17] give yeah you know it doesn't it doesn't

[20:20] it doesn't have voice of God but voice

[20:22] of God is sometimes like hey

[20:25] buddy right just two inches to

[20:29] yeah you know um just a little flutter

[20:31] in your heart or your stomach just a

[20:32] little bit I trust that with my life

[20:35] I've trusted my life with that feeling

[20:37] what do you think is the biggest thing

[20:38] that holds people back then is it fear

[20:39] or is it pain or is it both or something

[20:42] else it's always fear and fear for Game

[20:46] of Thrones fans out there is the

[20:47] original many-faced God right it's fear

[20:50] has so many disguises that it can take

[20:54] and but I know it by its by its works it

[20:57] shall be known right here's how you know

[20:59] it's fear it's stopping you it's fear um

[21:03] so it's it's how it makes you behave

[21:05] that makes you know what it is so fear

[21:07] can look like fear as we sort of

[21:09] commonly and narrowly recognize it

[21:11] anxiety Panic insecurity fear can also

[21:14] look like

[21:16] apathy um you know a sort of deep onwe

[21:19] that makes a person just be like well

[21:21] it's better it's been done who cares but

[21:24] can look like s what do you mean it's

[21:25] been done like someone's already been

[21:26] there done that so why should I go yeah

[21:28] fear can look like snarkiness whenever I

[21:30] meet somebody who's really acidic and

[21:31] snarky I'm like terrified person right

[21:34] there you know um because all I can do

[21:36] is shred everything that anyone else is

[21:38] doing um because I can't even begin to

[21:42] have the courage to take my energies and

[21:44] point them toward anything fear can look

[21:46] like boredom um fear can look like

[21:48] perfectionism which I call fear in high

[21:50] heeled shoes and pearl necklace trying

[21:51] to be fancy when all it is is terrified

[21:54] fear can look like um self abuse I mean

[21:57] fear you know but but but basically

[22:00] it's if you're not doing it the thing or

[22:04] anything right it's fear has taken a

[22:06] disguise in your life and is blocking

[22:08] you and and I just if you peel off mask

[22:11] after mask after mask of all those

[22:12] behaviors when you get to the bottom of

[22:14] it it's just our old

[22:15] friend hello old friend hello

[22:20] feares it's always that it's always that

[22:22] you know I'm writing a a new book that I

[22:24] just uh started writing called The Mask

[22:26] of masculinity wow and it's about this

[22:29] process of how men but also women now

[22:31] have take on this mask of of masculinity

[22:34] but how men growing up have been

[22:36] conditioned and trained to put on this

[22:38] mask which is a fear-based mask a

[22:40] fear-based mask of looking bad of not

[22:42] being whatever be able to protect people

[22:43] or smart enough whatever it may be and

[22:47] uh it's been fascinating to like dive

[22:48] deep in the research because as an

[22:50] athlete you know just conditioned to

[22:54] never cry in front of people to never

[22:56] show pain or or fear or anything yeah

[22:59] and uh and kind of it's hard to like

[23:01] transition from the sports world into

[23:03] real life and and not carry on those

[23:05] masks at school or when you're

[23:06] relationships with your family or

[23:08] intimate relationships and then how that

[23:10] trains down to the children when men

[23:12] grow up and repeat the cycle so uh it's

[23:16] been interesting to dive into fear and

[23:18] and the mass that we live in yeah and I

[23:20] heard you know there's all those um

[23:22] studies on um is it called what's that

[23:25] fraud fraud syndrome right um the

[23:28] studies CEOs who when anonymously pulled

[23:31] how many of them what percentage of them

[23:33] believe that they're fraud that they're

[23:35] a fraud a lot of them right it's about

[23:39] 87% and the rest I guarantee you are

[23:43] sociopaths wow or lying they're either

[23:46] pathological Liars or so just so

[23:48] narcissistic and egotistical that they

[23:50] believe it that they're like yeah I

[23:51] should have this um give me the

[23:53] helicopter you know um instead of having

[23:56] any sort of fragile M Chocolate part

[24:00] inside that goes did I why are they

[24:02] trusting me with this how am I managing

[24:04] 20,000 people why do they think I know

[24:06] what I'm doing you know and um is there

[24:09] ever a point where we should think that

[24:10] we know what we're doing and be

[24:12] confident and be like yes I am a leader

[24:13] I can lead people even if it's three

[24:15] people to a thousand people yeah I'll

[24:17] tell you I'll tell you a story but it

[24:19] has to be done with here's the example I

[24:22] can give you back to the O tour just

[24:24] because that is how we began but this is

[24:26] also an illustrative story from my life

[24:29] is that

[24:30] when when Oprah invited me to come and

[24:33] speak to 20,000 people in sports

[24:35] stadiums with a Jumbotron and said you

[24:38] know 50- minute speech you know just

[24:41] Inspire everybody like got it done and

[24:43] done like what no big deal oh was that

[24:46] all um you want me to prepare or should

[24:48] I just get up and do my just come there

[24:51] so I spent six seven months working on

[24:54] that speech oh my goodness um because I

[24:56] take her very seriously because

[24:59] everybody who is in that audience trusts

[25:00] her with their entire heart and life and

[25:02] so for her to trust me with her people

[25:04] is a huge Act of trust I want to bring

[25:06] them something good you know and

[25:09] something useful to them and so I mean

[25:12] the way that I practice and I don't read

[25:13] off a teleprompter because it I find it

[25:15] distracting so it's a memorized sort of

[25:17] that's a GI speech and that well it's

[25:20] hours a day of of repetition so I was so

[25:23] and the way I do it is by walking so I

[25:25] walk it into me so I spent months

[25:27] literally months walking hours a day

[25:29] talking walking working on this refining

[25:30] it refining it um so that's part of it

[25:33] is are you prepared right are you

[25:34] preparing have you done literally all

[25:36] you can do right right and then the the

[25:38] day of the first speech came and I was

[25:40] backstage and I was shaking in fear Los

[25:42] I had like imagine you know my knees

[25:44] 2,000 people you know and and Miss

[25:48] Winfrey in the front row like

[25:49] introducing you and be like here over to

[25:51] you us like yes trusting you with you

[25:54] know and watching you with her people

[25:56] who believe in her and who trust her and

[25:59] and I was really like my I was shaking

[26:01] and my hands all those things that

[26:03] happen when you're really scared and I

[26:05] was thinking I was like 5 minutes to go

[26:07] on and I was

[26:08] thinking there are times in your life

[26:11] where the most gracious and Humane gift

[26:14] that you can offer to people is to show

[26:17] them your

[26:19] vulnerability and to let them see that

[26:22] you two are fragile and human and

[26:24] insecure this is not one of those times

[26:27] like that is truly what I

[26:29] thought I TR I was like not today I

[26:32] thought you about to be

[26:33] like no and it was like so clear to me

[26:37] Lewis and it and what I realized was oh

[26:39] my goodness you were not hired today to

[26:42] show them that to be to show like

[26:43] weakness or you were brought here today

[26:46] to model what it looks like to stand in

[26:48] your truth to tell your story in a in a

[26:51] clear voice and to Aspire to claim for

[26:55] yourself some sort of a warrior Heroes

[26:58] Heroes story right like that's what

[27:00] you're that's your job right now do not

[27:02] bring these people who paid a lot of

[27:04] money do not bring them what they

[27:06] already have what they already have is

[27:07] fear insecurity self-hatred un like

[27:10] don't bring them more of don't try to

[27:13] bring them what they don't have and show

[27:14] them what that looks like but show it to

[27:16] them knowing and admitting how scared

[27:19] you are to yourself so how do you do

[27:21] that just by saying I'm scared to no not

[27:25] to me um and I know there are people

[27:27] who' be like you should have just said

[27:28] I'm nervous was like no not today you

[27:30] know like I'll do that in other places

[27:31] but not today and I feel like everyone

[27:33] does that it's kind of like the cop I

[27:35] know that's the new thing I'm so scared

[27:36] right now I'm so nervous and I and I and

[27:38] I was like not no because show them what

[27:41] a steady voice is and show them what it

[27:44] looks like for a woman to stand in her

[27:46] truth and tell her story and Aspire for

[27:50] to create her own Journey right show

[27:51] that model that and but admit to

[27:55] yourself how scared you are because

[27:57] that's integrity for you

[28:00] right so when you say are there is there

[28:02] ever a time to say I'm really good at

[28:05] this I'm great at this I'm perfect for

[28:06] this what I thought was I've prepared

[28:09] for this as much as I can 20 years of

[28:11] work to get 20 years of work to get here

[28:13] Oprah trusted me with this she's not an

[28:14] idiot she thinks I can do this this is

[28:17] your job and you're actually capable of

[28:18] doing this job and it's okay that you're

[28:21] afraid and no you do not go out there

[28:23] and show that and and it was really

[28:26] galvanizing you know it was just like

[28:28] like go do your job you know but do your

[28:31] job without fronting that you're the

[28:34] greatest you know like what doesn't ever

[28:37] humility yeah the humility was my

[28:39] shaking knees were my humility and my

[28:41] acknowledgement of that that's all right

[28:43] it's okay of course you're scared you'd

[28:45] be you'd be a psychopath if this wasn't

[28:47] scary yeah you know but go do your job

[28:50] go do your job you can do it and you can

[28:52] be scared you know what I feel like

[28:54] doesn't work is and it doesn't work for

[28:56] me and some for some people maybe it

[28:58] does is this kind of like pumping in

[29:00] getting yourself up for something by

[29:01] pumping your arms in the there and being

[29:03] like I'm the greatest and the reason it

[29:05] doesn't work for me is because there's

[29:06] this very reasonable Sayan part of my

[29:09] mind that's like well probably not like

[29:12] there's all sorts of evidence that I

[29:14] might not be you're a human being but

[29:17] guess what Louis I'm not the worst

[29:19] either and there's a huge amount of real

[29:21] estate between the worst and the

[29:23] greatest and I'm somewhere in there and

[29:26] I'll take my place in there where I am

[29:29] you know and I'm just happy to be in the

[29:30] game yeah hear you it's interesting I do

[29:33] um you know some speaking every now and

[29:34] then not at 20,000 with Oprah right now

[29:37] but you will yeah yeah but I do a lot of

[29:39] it my own way yeah and um I remember

[29:41] about a year and a half ago just it

[29:44] started to pick up more and I was

[29:45] working with a coach on just my business

[29:47] stuff and I called him like 15 minutes

[29:49] before I was like I'm just a little

[29:50] nervous right now I'm like I'm just I

[29:52] want to do a really great job you know

[29:54] yeah and he's like it's all good but the

[29:56] thing is to focus on you shouldn't be

[29:59] nervous if you're focusing on them when

[30:00] you focus on yourself right then yeah

[30:02] you're going to be nervous on how you

[30:03] look what if I mess up what if I slip

[30:05] What If I Stumble what if I look bad

[30:07] it's all concerned about how you look

[30:09] how you show up instead he's like you

[30:11] know the easiest way to shift out of

[30:12] that is to focus on service and being a

[30:14] service you're not going to look perfect

[30:16] right and people are going to accept you

[30:18] for who you are when you're authentic

[30:19] and real and right and not looking so

[30:22] polish is going to look you know how do

[30:24] you yeah I mean that's the thing that I

[30:26] felt was like you were here to show them

[30:28] go do your job and help you know um

[30:31] serve that's it it so when we come from

[30:33] that place it may not look perfect but

[30:36] it's going to be perfect in that moment

[30:38] there's this poet the poet Mark nepo I

[30:40] was recently having a conversation with

[30:41] him he said something so wonderful he

[30:42] said we live in a culture where

[30:44] everybody's trying to figure out how to

[30:45] get more attention like how do I get

[30:47] more a bigger platform how do I get more

[30:49] likes how do I get more of an audience

[30:51] how do I get more sales how do I get

[30:52] more attention and he said that's not

[30:55] that that's an insignificant question

[30:57] but there's another question which is

[31:00] while you're spending all your energy

[31:01] focused on getting attention what are

[31:03] you giving your attention to you know

[31:06] that's the sole question like what is so

[31:09] worthy to you that you will actually

[31:11] devote your attention to giving rather

[31:13] than getting you know so if you're

[31:15] giving your attention to your audience

[31:18] it's a lot more Beautiful Exchange than

[31:21] you're like AI can I get you guys to

[31:22] look at me right right yes versus what

[31:25] can I what can I get my my friend Glenn

[31:27] and Doyle Melton

[31:28] F sheing you know she said constantly

[31:31] people are coming up to her and saying

[31:33] how can I get a bigger platform on my

[31:34] page how can I get a bigger platform and

[31:36] she says by serving the platform you

[31:40] already have because if all you're

[31:42] thinking about with your platform is how

[31:44] can I get more numbers you're not even

[31:46] paying attention to the people who are

[31:47] already giving you their energy serve

[31:50] them and the rest of it will take care

[31:51] of itself they'll share it they'll talk

[31:53] about you share or they won't and you'll

[31:55] still be in service which is really what

[31:58] is for you know so it's about that

[31:59] giving of attention rather than try to

[32:01] get it what are you focusing your

[32:02] attention on right now

[32:05] um I have a friend who's very ill and um

[32:08] so that is everything right now um there

[32:11] isn't really a lot left for anything

[32:13] else and it's very clarifying in a way

[32:16] um Rob said I called him on the day that

[32:19] I found out and he was like it's amazing

[32:21] how everybody's always looking for their

[32:22] purpose and meaning and then something

[32:25] like this happens and suddenly it's so

[32:28] obvious

[32:28] yes like this is what you're here for

[32:31] now is is to serve this person you know

[32:34] um so honestly like don't really care

[32:38] about anything else right now um I mean

[32:40] I'm sort of whatever energy is left over

[32:42] I'm sort of giving out sure to the world

[32:45] as I can but that's everything right now

[32:48] okay yeah awesome

[32:51] um what I'm interested in is you've

[32:54] given a I want to talking about fear in

[32:56] a second so remind me if I forget if I

[32:58] remember but um you talked about this

[33:02] one of your speeches and how you it

[33:04] might have been on Oprah or Ted Talk I

[33:05] think how you achieved like this this

[33:07] big Monumental thing this book eay love

[33:10] eay what

[33:14] now who now

[33:17] exactly you achieved this big Monumental

[33:20] thing right and and then you talked

[33:23] about how you're like okay my greatest

[33:25] work is probably behind me I think I

[33:27] remember you mentioning saying that yeah

[33:28] certainly my most successful work most

[33:30] most well-known maybe it's not your

[33:32] greatest because you're going to create

[33:33] great work and it may be greater but the

[33:35] world will look back and be like she did

[33:37] that thing yes my the first line of my

[33:39] obituary has been written right exactly

[33:41] yeah so how do when people you know

[33:43] there's these big celebrities or people

[33:44] that achieve like overnight success with

[33:47] content or books or whatever it may be

[33:49] right athletes superstars who win

[33:51] championships early on right what advice

[33:54] do you give to people who make it big at

[33:56] a certain point and realize that wow

[33:57] maybe I'll never win the championship of

[34:00] whatever I'm doing again or achieve that

[34:02] achievement again right Oscar whatever

[34:03] it may be right how do people move

[34:05] forward after that cuz there are a lot

[34:07] of high Achievers on here as well as

[34:09] people that are trying to figure out how

[34:10] to get you know turn their passion into

[34:12] their profit and make it a reality yeah

[34:14] but I think it's equally as important to

[34:16] figure that out so for me it's a

[34:18] mathematical equation which is weird

[34:20] because I don't understand math but I do

[34:24] have an I do understand oh my God but

[34:27] you know what this is is the only way

[34:29] that I could see this that made sense so

[34:33] you know what absolute value is absolute

[34:35] value numbers you remember this at all

[34:36] okay so you're talking to a guy who

[34:38] barely passed look I barely did either

[34:40] but I actually like so an absolute value

[34:43] I can't believe I'm about to try to

[34:45] explain a math okay so there's zero

[34:47] right Zero's in the middle and then

[34:48] there's positive numbers and negative

[34:49] numbers right so there's positive 10 and

[34:51] there's negative 10 okay right so one of

[34:53] them is worth positive 10 points the

[34:55] other one is worth minus 10 points but

[34:57] the distance that they those two numbers

[34:59] are from zero is the same well 10 and 10

[35:02] 10 and 10 gotta if you've measured

[35:03] inches they're each 10 inches away from

[35:05] Center yep right so that's an absolute

[35:07] value so they have the same absolute

[35:09] value as which is how far they are from

[35:11] zero right I can't believe I'm

[35:12] explaining math makes sense to me Squad

[35:15] goals um okay uh so what that means in

[35:20] our personal lives and I think in our

[35:21] professional lives and artistic lives

[35:23] and everything is that zero is where you

[35:27] are doing it's what I call home and my

[35:31] definition of home is the place where I

[35:34] am doing the work I love for the right

[35:37] reasons um beh and that's integrity

[35:41] that's ethics that's the devotion that I

[35:43] bring to my creativity that's treating

[35:46] the people around me correctly that's

[35:48] just my ethical home is at zero and sort

[35:51] of and my creative home is at zero

[35:52] writing is my home um it's where when

[35:55] I'm at work that is when I'm writing a

[35:57] book is when I feel my most authentic

[35:59] it's when I'm the least full of I'm

[36:01] alone in a room and it's just me and

[36:03] this thing that I've always loved and

[36:04] I'm giving it my it's what I'm giving my

[36:06] attention to right I'm not thinking

[36:08] about critics I'm not thinking about

[36:09] Book Sales I'm not I'm just doing me

[36:12] this idea alone that's my home right so

[36:15] failure great failure let's say isga 10

[36:19] from zero right when you fail and you're

[36:22] shamed and you're cast off into the

[36:24] darkness of you know public

[36:29] and bankruptcy divorce you know uh

[36:34] addiction exposure like just any is

[36:37] we're going to put that at negative 10

[36:40] um we don't want that we all agree

[36:41] that's we try to avoid that that that

[36:43] has we can't always avoid it right if

[36:45] you're in life these things are going to

[36:46] happen right success is positive 10

[36:49] right we all want that we all want to go

[36:50] over there like bright lights and and

[36:53] and acclaim and praise and money and

[36:56] women and fast cars and and like

[36:59] attention and trophies that's all at

[37:01] positive 10 right but if you look at it

[37:05] and if you look at it just from a

[37:06] numerical value obviously positive 10 is

[37:08] a lot better than negative 10 yeah if

[37:10] you look at it from an absolute value

[37:13] they're exactly the same distance from

[37:15] zero and where I want to be is at zero

[37:19] because zero is my stable ground where I

[37:22] can do my work from a place of integrity

[37:26] and ethics and devotion and and

[37:28] curiosity and interest where I'm

[37:30] following my path right so success can

[37:34] seem so appealing but if you're not

[37:37] aware of what your zero is where your

[37:40] like where your steadiness is it can

[37:42] throw you just as far away from yourself

[37:44] as failure yeah and so great success and

[37:47] great failure are both on an absolute

[37:49] value scale equally

[37:52] dangerous right and this we know this

[37:54] because look at the cautionary tales of

[37:56] everybody we know who gets out into

[37:58] great success and they might as well

[37:59] have been flung instantly to1 because

[38:02] they're so far from their Center and so

[38:05] the work that you have to do so what

[38:06] happened to me after he pray love is I

[38:07] found myself at positive 10 positive 100

[38:10] probably then yeah it was pretty crazy

[38:13] and so what I had to do was the same

[38:16] thing exactly the same psychological and

[38:19] spiritual work that I used to have to do

[38:21] whenever I got rejected in the seven

[38:23] years before I got published and these

[38:25] rejection letters that would throw me in

[38:26] a negative 10 right no one's ever heard

[38:28] of me nobody cares about me I've been

[38:30] trying for seven years to get this

[38:31] published I just got rejected again I'm

[38:33] never going to be anywhere I'm going to

[38:34] be a diner waitress forever that's Nega

[38:35] 10 and the work that I have to do back

[38:38] then is the same work I had to do at

[38:40] positive 10 which is come back home to

[38:42] zero what does that look like

[38:45] conversation where's your home Liz and

[38:48] the answer is get back to work writing

[38:50] get back to work get back to work at the

[38:52] thing that you do that makes that you

[38:55] care about more than you care about

[38:56] yourself in a way than you're more than

[38:57] you care about but your ego your

[38:59] successes and so after Eat Pray Love the

[39:01] only way I could break the spell of

[39:02] positive 10 was to go back in my room

[39:05] alone and write another book um knowing

[39:09] that it would never be and mean nothing

[39:10] I'm ever it's not possible l i the kind

[39:12] of good thing about Eat Pray Love Too is

[39:13] such a tsunami that it was such a Black

[39:16] Swan that it's like you don't even have

[39:18] to try to do that again I didn't try to

[39:21] do it the first time right I I've

[39:23] written every single you didn't think

[39:24] about that you didn't say I want this to

[39:26] be a big success and be a big like

[39:28] everything I do to be I mean you want

[39:30] people to read sure of course I mean if

[39:31] I have a choice between positive 10 and

[39:33] negative 10 I'll go with positive 10 but

[39:34] I'm not in control of the outcome I'm

[39:36] only in control of my state the work my

[39:40] work and my process and my ethics right

[39:43] my integrity and my ethics and when

[39:45] you're there as I said in that Ted Talk

[39:48] the Hurricanes of outcome can come and

[39:50] go failures the hurricane of failure can

[39:53] come the hurricane of success can come

[39:54] you just keep coming back home to what

[39:57] you're to be doing with the spirit that

[39:59] you're meant to be doing it and you'll

[40:00] be fine you'll be fine um and that's why

[40:03] I'm not doing cocaine off strippers

[40:07] boobs I don't even know if that's like

[40:09] what I would trying to think about the

[40:10] female equivalent that would be but

[40:12] that's why I'm all right you know what I

[40:14] mean that's why I have my old friends

[40:16] that's why Magic Mike's chest

[40:18] EXA that's why I don't have two albino

[40:21] tigers like my right like that's why I'm

[40:22] all right um just have the one

[40:28] many times you know I mean that's it's

[40:30] like come back just are you home are you

[40:32] home at zero at equilibrium are you

[40:34] doing the right work from the right

[40:36] place with Have You released the outcome

[40:38] are you serving rather than are you

[40:39] trying to give attention rather than

[40:40] getting it then you're all right did you

[40:42] feel like you were ready for what came

[40:44] after the book do you feel like the

[40:46] attention I mean must have been so much

[40:48] attention and everyone opportunity

[40:50] opportunity like press yeah

[40:52] Ridiculousness right I was as ready as I

[40:55] could be and the really good news was

[40:57] when it happened which was fourth book

[41:00] not first right um in my good marriage

[41:03] not my unstable chaotic

[41:05] marriage 34 not 22 you know um after

[41:11] years of therapy not before after

[41:14] spiritual journey to India not before in

[41:15] a way the writing of e pre love and the

[41:17] living of e pre love prepared me for the

[41:20] what happened with eay love interes um

[41:21] you know so that what happened after it

[41:24] was so interesting I've said I've tried

[41:26] to explain this before but I feel like

[41:27] people say to me God it must been so

[41:30] crazy for you what happened after he PR

[41:32] 11 and I always want to say my life was

[41:35] crazy when I was in my 20s you just

[41:38] didn't know me then I made it crazy

[41:41] myself because I was doing all sorts of

[41:43] crazy things right emotionally Mally

[41:45] emotionally mentally like codo

[41:48] relationship like all kinds of just

[41:49] craziness and immaturity really you know

[41:52] and you might have looked at me then and

[41:54] I might have looked like somebody who

[41:56] had it together or had a normal life but

[41:59] I was actually just a tornado right by

[42:01] the time me PR love came out there was a

[42:03] tornado going on around me because of

[42:05] the reaction to that book but I was not

[42:07] the tornado you were more grounded I was

[42:09] all right you know and it was and it

[42:10] also I mean there were things to adjust

[42:12] to there were parts of it that were

[42:13] times where I you know said yes to too

[42:16] many things and had to learn like okay

[42:18] don't do that again right right this

[42:20] place that you're in is not good being

[42:21] this stressed this tired and feeling

[42:23] like you're being eaten by by everybody

[42:25] like that's no good um but

[42:28] yeah you know I I was all right and I

[42:31] had good people around me and um I was

[42:33] living in a tiny little town in New

[42:35] Jersey which was a very safe place to be

[42:37] people used to come there was this

[42:38] period at like peaky Pray Love where

[42:40] people knew I lived in that town and

[42:41] they would come to the diner and ask the

[42:43] diner waitresses does where's Liz

[42:45] Gilbert's house and the diner waitresses

[42:46] would point across the bridge to

[42:48] Pennsylvania and be like okay so you go

[42:49] over that bridge and you go like 20

[42:51] miles over those mountains and they

[42:53] would just send them out of town on my

[42:54] behalf wow um cuz it was such a loyal

[42:58] Community to me was Was it crazy though

[43:00] I mean it was just for a little while

[43:01] but it's not like Kardashian

[43:03] level that's crazy but um and it was

[43:07] also you know the there's also something

[43:11] that would happen that people think is

[43:12] crazy but I didn't experience this crazy

[43:14] where people would come up to me on the

[43:16] street and say this must sound insane to

[43:18] you but I feel like I know you and I

[43:21] would say that doesn't sound insane to

[43:22] me because I wrote two Memoirs in a row

[43:25] and told you literally everything about

[43:29] like the reason this feels weird is that

[43:32] I don't know

[43:34] you so that's the imbalance yeah would

[43:37] just say I don't know you so why don't

[43:39] we just go right to that why don't you

[43:41] tell me who you are and where you're

[43:42] from and what your life is because you

[43:44] already know you actually really do

[43:45] already know everything about me you

[43:47] know and I didn't think they were crazy

[43:49] to feel that way it's not their fault

[43:50] that I wrote two Memoirs in a row I'm

[43:52] the one who put it out there can't I

[43:54] can't you can't do that and then be like

[43:55] I don't want attention right yeah

[43:58] it's like you know I reveal some of my

[43:59] biggest secrets on my podcast and people

[44:01] listen every week that's when they meet

[44:03] me they say you know I feel like I know

[44:05] this and this this all these things

[44:06] about you and I appreciate you opening

[44:08] up yeah it's kind of like a living

[44:09] Memoir I guess in the podcast so and

[44:12] that's all right you did that yeah with

[44:14] your own valtion and your own agency

[44:15] nobody came and stole your journals and

[44:17] published them exactly you know um you

[44:19] know I decided to put that out there you

[44:21] decided to put that out there and um and

[44:23] I get it and there's people who I feel

[44:25] like I know um I've had that experience

[44:27] where I meet somebody opra right um yeah

[44:29] we all feel like we know Oprah right

[44:31] what is it about her that so many people

[44:33] that like gives you this energy thought

[44:36] about her why are so many people

[44:37] attracted to her why is she so different

[44:39] than everyone else she's better than

[44:41] everyone else not being competitive here

[44:44] no I mean she's the most impressive

[44:47] human being I've ever met um you know

[44:49] and I what is it

[44:53] she's she

[44:55] has managed I said this

[44:58] to her once I said you never let your

[45:01] greatness get in the way of your

[45:02] goodness um so what it starts with with

[45:05] her is an essential goodness and she has

[45:09] 360 Dee empathetic view of every room

[45:12] that she's in she's aware of everyone in

[45:16] that room and their state and um there's

[45:19] a story I've told before but I find it

[45:20] so remarkable when we did that tour

[45:23] there was a young girl who came with her

[45:26] parents and she was there as a guest of

[45:28] the makea Wish Foundation teenage girl

[45:31] so she was there with her mom and her

[45:33] dad her little sister was probably about

[45:35] nine and this girl was about 15 and I

[45:39] don't know what her condition was but

[45:41] Louis she was there with the makewi

[45:42] foundation right said something she's

[45:44] very ill you know like obviously

[45:45] something's not right not good with this

[45:47] she's a young person who's either very

[45:50] sick or dying right and and she her wish

[45:53] had been to come and meet Oprah Winfrey

[45:56] to come to this event so Oprah went on

[45:58] stage at one point and just said In This

[46:00] Very poised and beautiful way she took a

[46:03] moment and said that we have a special

[46:04] guest in the audience today and I can't

[46:07] remember her name you know just make up

[46:09] a name she's like you know this is Kelly

[46:11] she's here as a gift of the mega Wish

[46:13] Foundation and and can you stand up and

[46:15] she put the spotlight on her and

[46:17] everyone's like weeping because they

[46:18] don't even know but they know like you

[46:20] know everyone knows what that means and

[46:23] that alone was beautiful generous

[46:26] empathetic Humane that's Oprah right but

[46:28] then she did something after that that I

[46:31] was like oh that's why you're you and

[46:35] nobody else is you she said um we have

[46:38] another very special guest in the

[46:40] audience today and I was so honored to

[46:43] be able to meet this young woman

[46:44] backstage and talk to her and she

[46:46] reminds me of myself at her age she's

[46:50] loves reading and she's passionate about

[46:52] school she loves music and she loves to

[46:54] dance and she is really interested in

[46:56] animals and she just the most vivacious

[46:59] spirited young woman I've ever met and

[47:01] that's Kelly's little sister and she

[47:04] puts the spotlight on the 9-year-old

[47:06] who's the little sister of the girl

[47:09] who's very sick and I was like oh my god

[47:13] of course that kid gets no attention

[47:16] right of of course that kid gets no

[47:18] attention so all the focus is on Kelly

[47:20] Kelly's got the glamour of you know and

[47:23] Kelly's very ill and her probably

[47:25] requires a huge amount of attention

[47:26] because she has a serious disease of

[47:27] some sort but she also has the glamour

[47:31] of suffering around her and this kid has

[47:34] probably just been as much as doesn't

[47:37] mean her parents don't love her they

[47:38] just don't have time and energy they

[47:39] have a very sick daughter and I was like

[47:41] oh my God and that little girl stood up

[47:43] and she put the spotlight on her and she

[47:45] was just beaming like she just like took

[47:47] up the whole Arena she's like hi you

[47:50] know she like and for Oprah to say you

[47:53] remind me of myself oh my gosh you know

[47:55] like you remind me of myself you're just

[47:57] like me you're great like that's why

[48:01] you're opro Winfrey I mean it's good

[48:03] enough that you did the first step but

[48:05] you saw the next thing that nobody else

[48:09] would see and and that's again not about

[48:13] how am I getting attention but who am I

[48:15] giving attention to and I see her do

[48:17] that in every room that she's in you

[48:19] know just pick the person who isn't

[48:22] getting the attention and see them wow

[48:25] you know and make them feel seen and and

[48:27] that's why she's her and nobody else is

[48:30] and because I think after a certain

[48:31] level people stop giving attention and

[48:35] only try to hold on to the attention

[48:37] that they have or get more you know

[48:38] what's interesting as I asked Rob uh we

[48:40] were having breakfast the other day I

[48:42] said what's one question you haven't

[48:43] asked Liz that you've always wanted to

[48:45] ask her which you guys have an

[48:47] incredible relationship I'm sure you

[48:48] guys have told each other everything but

[48:49] I said what's one question that you'd

[48:50] want to ask and his question was how

[48:53] does she go into every room and see

[48:55] people for who they are and give them

[48:56] the most attention okay now I'm going to

[48:59] [Laughter]

[49:00] cry

[49:02] a so um I thought that was

[49:06] interesting I don't because I want to

[49:10] because I want to

[49:13] um

[49:15] and you know you were asking about

[49:17] that's so sweet of him to say that um

[49:19] you were asking him about he's he wants

[49:21] to know how you do it how by wanting to

[49:25] by wanting to um you know you know

[49:28] uh why else would you walk into a room

[49:32] yeah right like what other motive would

[49:35] you possibly

[49:36] have what other reason is there to meet

[49:39] a person than to try to see them you

[49:41] know um I'm interested in us yeah we're

[49:46] really weird we are we're really weird

[49:49] these monkeys these monkeys with these

[49:51] supercomputer brains on this planet

[49:53] spinning 69,000 M hour through space who

[49:56] have a cons of divinity what all of us

[49:59] are that I want to know what that what

[50:03] that is you know and I think actually

[50:05] really one of the if there was a painful

[50:07] thing about e pray love it was that the

[50:09] number of people who were in the room

[50:11] was suddenly so big that I couldn't do

[50:13] that in every room anymore without me

[50:16] being exhausted by it so it's taking too

[50:18] much of your energy I'm not a natural

[50:20] boundary Setter to put it mildly

[50:23] yeah I mean you let me pick you up right

[50:25] way so I first thing I said to you was

[50:28] who's this guy up and the first thing I

[50:30] said to you was use

[50:31] me you were like what do you want me to

[50:33] what do you want me to pitch you know

[50:35] what do you want me to promote yes on

[50:37] this podcast I was like I'm here to

[50:38] serve you and your people use me like I

[50:40] don't so I had for me to have to set

[50:42] boundaries is very painful I'd rather

[50:44] not I mean I really would rather that we

[50:47] were all just Golden Retrievers in a

[50:49] pile you know like so it's not easy for

[50:52] me to um say no to people and it's not

[50:55] easy for me to say I can't give you

[50:57] everything you want I'll certainly try

[50:59] um but I did this thing that was so cool

[51:01] when I was on tour for big magic I often

[51:04] find that I shut down there's a part of

[51:07] me that shuts down on tour because it's

[51:08] so much energy going out yeah and I was

[51:11] going on this four Monon long tour and I

[51:12] thought I don't want to be shut down I

[51:14] don't want to just be in P like

[51:15] autopilot I don't want to have my screen

[51:17] saver on I want to be awake and alert to

[51:21] what Rob always calls the action is here

[51:23] like your life isn't happening sometime

[51:25] in the future it's happening right now

[51:27] in this room with whoever you're with um

[51:29] and so I made this goal that every

[51:31] single person that I met everyone that I

[51:34] met on my tour I was going to ask them

[51:37] what are you most excited about in your

[51:38] life right now with this idea that

[51:40] amazing that this is the question I

[51:42] asked anyone knew that I mean really I

[51:44] asked them this question it's such a

[51:45] good question because I feel like people

[51:47] always ask the wrong question they ask

[51:48] where are you from what do you do

[51:50] there's no way to learn less about some

[51:52] than to ask people those two questions

[51:54] it's instant learning nothing about

[51:56] somebody I'll either say what are you

[51:58] most grateful for in your life recently

[51:59] uhhuh or what are you most excited about

[52:01] in your life right now that is so cool

[52:03] and I feel like that brings the most joy

[52:04] out of people well you get right to it

[52:07] the thing they're excited about or what

[52:08] do you yeah and right to the person

[52:10] that's crazy you said that that's so

[52:11] funny I didn't know you asked those

[52:12] questions that's funny cuz that's about

[52:14] being interested in you know what

[52:16] they're all about too and the answers

[52:17] are amazing aren't they unbelievable um

[52:20] like that my favorite one on my tour was

[52:22] this young woman doing my makeup before

[52:23] a morning TV show and it's exactly the

[52:25] kind of interaction that is normally not

[52:27] not an interaction um which is we we're

[52:29] so in David White the poet says the most

[52:32] interesting thing to him about human

[52:33] beings is that we're the only species on

[52:35] the planet who can choose not to show up

[52:37] um like can choose to not even just be

[52:40] there like all animals are totally where

[52:42] they are at all times like the hawk

[52:44] can't be like I'm I'm just not gonna do

[52:46] I'm G to be a hawk

[52:48] today like a fish can't just be like I

[52:50] have had it up to the teeth with being a

[52:52] fish I'm just not even going to show up

[52:55] like humans can do that though and be

[52:56] like I'm not even going to I just can't

[52:58] you know um and so there's all these

[53:00] human interactions that we have with

[53:02] people where there are two people who

[53:04] are just both not there um you know and

[53:08] and so for me getting my makeup done

[53:10] before morning TV with this young woman

[53:11] who'd been there since 3:00 a.m. at the

[53:13] studio and me on a long tour that's

[53:14] exactly the kind of interaction where

[53:16] two people can be doing this incredibly

[53:17] weirdly intimate thing where she's like

[53:19] a quarter of an inch from my face

[53:20] painting me and not be there and she's

[53:22] not there I'm not there like that is

[53:24] weird on your phone yeah I'm planning

[53:27] what I'm going to be saying and she's

[53:28] thinking about when she's getting off

[53:29] work and here she is like so physically

[53:32] intimate to me and we're both not in the

[53:34] room like that's incredible right so I

[53:36] said what do you can I ask you a

[53:38] question and she's like just sort of

[53:39] dead eyed tired she like I said you know

[53:43] what are you most excited about right

[53:44] now and she went they just found water

[53:47] on Mars like literally like that and

[53:50] she's like this is changing everything

[53:52] about the whole history of human

[53:53] colonialization and migration and my

[53:55] grandchildren are going to live in outer

[53:56] space and this changes everything about

[53:58] climate change and this and she's a

[53:59] total space geek wow and I was like you

[54:02] have no clue we could have sat here for

[54:03] a long time before we got to Mars you

[54:05] know but we just jumped right into this

[54:07] really weird very specific thing and

[54:10] suddenly we were both there like two

[54:13] human beings in a room together life

[54:16] meeting life right and it's a moment you

[54:19] remember I'll never forget her it was

[54:21] awesome and and then I wanted to know

[54:23] everything about her feelings about Mars

[54:26] and why shees and what she's all about

[54:28] and then I used to have a friend who was

[54:31] a wine maker and he used to say you know

[54:32] wine is alive it's a you know it's

[54:34] living cultures in there and when you're

[54:36] drinking wine it's a moment where life

[54:38] is meeting life a living thing is

[54:40] meeting another living thing and he said

[54:42] there's nothing better that you can do

[54:43] with your time in all circumstances than

[54:46] to create scenarios in which life can

[54:48] meet life and that question is a really

[54:51] good way for life to meet life what are

[54:53] you excited about what are you grateful

[54:54] for that's a good one too I think it CU

[54:57] it's the re I I mean I live in gratitude

[54:59] that's my life like the morning moment I

[55:01] wake up to if you ever call me on my

[55:03] cell phone I don't pick up the my voice

[55:05] message says tell me what you're most

[55:06] grateful for first then I'll reply to

[55:08] you to just meeting people I'm

[55:11] constantly evoking it because you know

[55:14] it's hard to be angry and grateful at

[55:15] the same time it's really hard to be

[55:17] frustrated and pissed off at life and

[55:19] it's impossible to be generous oh yeah

[55:22] without being grateful absolutely

[55:23] impossible I've never met a a a generous

[55:27] person who doesn't live in gratitude and

[55:29] I've never met a stingy and ungenerous

[55:31] person who has any gratitude in them at

[55:33] all right impossible it's always what's

[55:35] lacking what's not good enough I don't

[55:36] have enough so how can I possibly share

[55:38] yeah you know interesting interesting

[55:41] who taught you that or did you teach it

[55:43] yourself you know life just life yeah I

[55:46] mean I was really miserable for a long

[55:48] time just like inside like I was so

[55:50] driven and focused to achieve cuz I

[55:52] thought that was going to bring me

[55:53] acceptance yeah and I would achieve

[55:55] everything I ever wanted and feel so

[55:57] lonely and like oh so you get this you

[55:59] win the trophy and then and I was like

[56:00] then you're like what am I suppos to do

[56:02] the most angry nasty person like 10

[56:04] minutes after like every Big dream I

[56:06] ever achieved when I was like my teens

[56:08] and 20s yeah and I was just like why am

[56:10] I so frustrated and angry and defensive

[56:12] and guarded by like achieving everything

[56:14] I ever wanted yeah and then I started to

[56:17] do the inner work and realized that's

[56:18] why the mask of masculinity I'm diving

[56:20] into this topic I love that you're doing

[56:22] this to talk about over the last 3 four

[56:24] years three four years I've really been

[56:26] like shifting and realize wow like I've

[56:28] been doing it to gain acceptance as

[56:30] opposed to to create what I love and

[56:32] Inspire and to serve wow so now

[56:34] everything's shifted to service it's

[56:36] what it's my motivation behind giving

[56:38] and creating and yes I want to be a New

[56:40] York time bestseller and Achieve these

[56:42] things go and you will who doesn't

[56:45] exactly but I want to Ser but in yeah

[56:47] and and in that service process after

[56:49] and during exactly so in the process

[56:52] like life is just transformed that's

[56:54] amazing yeah just being aware of it and

[56:56] then taking cuz I listened to your

[56:57] interview with Rob and I know you talked

[56:59] about that whole Evolution um that's so

[57:03] cool so it's been fun I mean I'm still

[57:05] doing a lot of the work I'm not perfect

[57:06] by any means but what you're not done

[57:09] you're still alive and you're not done

[57:10] still alive yeah exactly life will make

[57:13] sure that you're not done exactly but

[57:15] gratitude for me it's like uh you know

[57:17] it's in the morning I write it down you

[57:19] know during the day I just talk about it

[57:21] I ask people I evoke it as much as I can

[57:23] yeah and then uh at night I'll tell my

[57:25] girlfriend you know I'll ask her what

[57:26] are three things you're most grateful

[57:27] for and I'll share what I'm grateful for

[57:29] from just the day and I feel like it's

[57:31] again it's really hard it's really hard

[57:33] to be angry or resentful or pissed off

[57:36] of like a hater or whatever like if you

[57:39] didn't achieve what you wanted to to dat

[57:40] it's like still a lot to be grateful for

[57:43] so much good that's happening to us you

[57:45] know that practice of three things a day

[57:48] that you're grateful for has been shown

[57:50] to be I'm know you know this but it's

[57:51] shown to be one of the very few

[57:54] immediately concrete ways that you can

[57:55] totally change your life

[57:57] into a happier life it's like just and

[57:59] it can't be abstract like yeah I'm just

[58:03] going to try to have an attitude or

[58:04] gratitude it's like write that down

[58:07] write it down tell people and evoke it

[58:09] out of people it down cuz it makes you

[58:12] have to find it see it and realize it

[58:14] yeah be aware of it yeah um what's

[58:16] missing in your life right

[58:18] now wow what's

[58:23] missing that's very hard to even think

[58:26] of um is there anything missing yeah I

[58:28] mean there's nothing missing in my life

[58:32] there's things missing in who I would

[58:35] like to be who's that you know um I

[58:38] would love to be less judgmental I would

[58:42] love to be more forgiving um those two

[58:45] things go hand in hand um I would love

[58:49] to have no

[58:53] anxiety um so what's sometimes missing

[58:56] is peace and trust but less and less

[59:00] like less and less I have like I'm at

[59:02] the most peaceful and trusting place in

[59:04] my life now that I've ever been yeah um

[59:06] and I see where we can just keep going

[59:08] with that you know um what do you think

[59:11] is going to take for you to achieve that

[59:14] or or or be that more money isn't that

[59:17] hilarious I'm just joking but like do

[59:19] you see how dumb that sounds it sounds

[59:21] stupid like yeah I mean if I want to be

[59:23] a more forgiving person I'm just going

[59:25] to have to have a bigger income you know

[59:27] and I'm going to have to have a much

[59:28] much better house and then I think and

[59:30] then I think I won't judge others as

[59:32] much I think it'll make me Kinder and

[59:35] and softer and less you know less less

[59:37] self what what it's going to take I'll

[59:39] tell you you know I think what it's

[59:40] going to take is is paying attention you

[59:44] know keeping that at the you know bne

[59:47] Brown always just keep your shadow in

[59:48] front of you where you can see it um

[59:51] because you want to you know keep an eye

[59:53] on it if you if you if it's behind you

[59:55] it's going to be doing all kinds of of

[59:56] crazy stuff to you that you can't see um

[59:58] so I know that this is my shadow work um

[1:00:02] and and I think forgiveness especially

[1:00:04] um is my shadow work I can't I and the

[1:00:08] way that I want to work on that I have a

[1:00:11] lot of to come at it from many angles

[1:00:13] but one is to spend as much time around

[1:00:14] people who are really good at it I mean

[1:00:16] the thing about the thing I feel about

[1:00:18] our families and where we come from is

[1:00:22] that I realized this the other day

[1:00:24] because somebody said to me well you're

[1:00:25] really lucky because you grew up in a

[1:00:26] family where creativity was encouraged

[1:00:28] you know so lucky you you get to go be a

[1:00:29] writer cuz your family didn't squash

[1:00:31] your creativity and I thought you are

[1:00:34] absolutely correct about that you know

[1:00:36] and if I'm going to be creating a

[1:00:37] gratitude list for things that I'm

[1:00:38] grateful for one of the things I'm

[1:00:39] grateful for is that my parents did not

[1:00:40] squash my creativity and that was that's

[1:00:42] amazing because a lot of families do and

[1:00:44] I am and they my parents were good at

[1:00:46] that and they got that and there's a lot

[1:00:48] of other stuff that they got and they

[1:00:49] were good at too however they didn't get

[1:00:52] everything and there was a lot of stuff

[1:00:54] they were not good at at all they

[1:00:55] weren't perfect they were believe it or

[1:00:57] not and then you know they were also

[1:00:59] raised by people who didn't get

[1:01:01] everything and who didn't have all the

[1:01:03] pieces of the puzzle and who had serious

[1:01:06] gaps right

[1:01:08] and so my parents like all of our

[1:01:12] parents gave me literally everything

[1:01:16] they could yeah based on what they had

[1:01:18] you it is not possible for somebody to

[1:01:21] give you something they do not

[1:01:22] themselves possess it's not possible and

[1:01:25] so there were certain lessons growing up

[1:01:27] that I never saw modeled for me only

[1:01:30] because they didn't know how to do it

[1:01:32] right you know um if they knew they

[1:01:34] would have shown me the way they showed

[1:01:35] me how to be creative the way they

[1:01:36] showed me how to be self assured like

[1:01:38] there were certain things that they were

[1:01:39] really good at showing me what they

[1:01:41] weren't able to show me because no one

[1:01:43] showed them was how to be forgiving how

[1:01:47] to be at a certain level generous um

[1:01:50] because there was like a lot of scarcity

[1:01:51] anxiety in my family um they weren't

[1:01:54] able to show me how to be honest in

[1:01:57] certain circumstances that require a

[1:01:59] very brave honesty because there was a

[1:02:00] lot of conflict aversion and so there

[1:02:02] were a lot of things that were never

[1:02:03] discussed and said because they didn't

[1:02:04] know how um none of this is about

[1:02:09] blaming them you can't blame people for

[1:02:11] not giving you what they didn't have you

[1:02:13] know and what I wanted to say to that

[1:02:16] and I was sort of able to say to I was

[1:02:17] trying to explain this this woman who

[1:02:18] said you're so lucky that you were given

[1:02:21] this and I'm like

[1:02:22] yes

[1:02:24] but I didn't get like these 10 other

[1:02:27] things and what I've done as an adult is

[1:02:30] to go become a student of those things I

[1:02:32] didn't get because all over the world

[1:02:34] are people who have to offer what my

[1:02:37] parents didn't have and I've become I go

[1:02:39] sit at their feet and I say show me

[1:02:43] Teach Me model for me how to do this

[1:02:46] thing that was not modeled for me when I

[1:02:48] was a child because now I'm a grown ass

[1:02:50] adult I can go look for that thing I'm

[1:02:52] not going to sit around at my age and be

[1:02:54] like nobody ever told me how to be

[1:02:57] honest so when I'm going to go find the

[1:03:00] most honest people I know and say walk

[1:03:02] me through how you just did that

[1:03:04] interaction where you were so kind but

[1:03:07] also so straight with somebody about

[1:03:09] your truth and your feeling because I've

[1:03:11] never been able to do that so can you

[1:03:13] just take me back and just literally

[1:03:15] stepbystep like Elementary addition show

[1:03:19] me what that looks like when you do that

[1:03:20] you know and show me how you just

[1:03:23] forgave that person who I watched

[1:03:26] you talk me through it like it's tough

[1:03:30] it is tough but there are people who

[1:03:32] know things that I don't know and you

[1:03:35] can go be near them and you can ask them

[1:03:38] questions and you can learn and what I

[1:03:41] wanted to say to this woman who was like

[1:03:43] I my family didn't teach me how to be

[1:03:45] creative so I can't be creative was like

[1:03:47] go learn right or buy a book go

[1:03:52] to the bookstore there's a whole thing

[1:03:56] Rob always says this whatever your

[1:03:58] ailment or missing pieces are there are

[1:04:01] professionals who can help you with it

[1:04:04] like go get a creativity coach take an

[1:04:07] art class or just sit there for the rest

[1:04:09] of your life saying nobody ever let me

[1:04:12] be creative when I was a kid so hands up

[1:04:14] in the air nothing I can do about it go

[1:04:16] be a student yeah you know go be a

[1:04:19] student so these pieces that I'm missing

[1:04:21] in me my life's goals are to be a

[1:04:23] student you know like I tookan Le an

[1:04:26] 12we forgiveness class wow you know like

[1:04:29] I listened six times to Rob's podcast

[1:04:32] his four podcast in a row on forgiveness

[1:04:34] I was like I did the homework it's like

[1:04:37] I will show up and try to fill these

[1:04:39] gaps rather than being like damn it mom

[1:04:43] why didn't you give me everything I

[1:04:44] needed right you know why because no one

[1:04:47] gave her everything she needed you know

[1:04:49] but one thing my parents did teach me

[1:04:51] was how to

[1:04:52] learn so it's a great skill go learn

[1:04:56] yeah it's a great skill you know go go

[1:04:59] learn yeah you know um I didn't get all

[1:05:02] I'm assuming you got everything you

[1:05:03] needed from your family of origin

[1:05:07] everything they just filled in the whole

[1:05:10] story the thing they did give me which

[1:05:12] is probably similar to your story is

[1:05:13] they gave me belief they told me that

[1:05:16] anything I wanted to do is possible and

[1:05:18] my father and my mom were just like

[1:05:19] whatever your dream is go for it like we

[1:05:21] fully support you no matter how crazy it

[1:05:23] is that's great no matter how you know

[1:05:25] whatever is you know they also got

[1:05:28] divorced and were a lot of emotional

[1:05:30] conversations constantly growing up my

[1:05:32] brother was in prison for four years

[1:05:33] when I was eight years old so I didn't

[1:05:35] have any friends during that time

[1:05:36] because no other parents would let their

[1:05:38] kids hang out with me um and you know I

[1:05:41] was sexually abused I was raped when I

[1:05:43] was five by a man that I didn't know so

[1:05:44] there was a lot of things that you know

[1:05:47] shaped my mindset early on but my father

[1:05:49] and mom always said they always told me

[1:05:51] how much they love me and said you can

[1:05:53] do anything you want and that's a pretty

[1:05:55] good fundamental and it's still that

[1:05:56] belief in me yeah and out of all the

[1:05:58] kids in my high school and college I

[1:06:00] went to three different colleges there's

[1:06:02] so many kids that I know who were afraid

[1:06:05] of me when I went after my dream after

[1:06:06] college that didn't want to talk to me

[1:06:08] anymore and I was like why am I being

[1:06:10] like why do no one want to talk to me or

[1:06:12] hang out with me when I'm going after

[1:06:13] what I want and I realized because a lot

[1:06:16] of them didn't have that Foundation that

[1:06:18] they were able to go after what they

[1:06:20] wanted so it felt really foreign and

[1:06:22] they were just like yeah they were kind

[1:06:23] of trying to take me down or bring me

[1:06:25] back to where they are and just the

[1:06:26] comfort zone we call that tribal shaming

[1:06:29] right and I was just like powerful thing

[1:06:30] so I had to lose all these friends but I

[1:06:32] was like I'm not going to sacrifice my

[1:06:34] dream and learn what my gifts are yeah

[1:06:36] yeah to please 20 people or whatever it

[1:06:39] is you know that were my closest friends

[1:06:41] yeah and a lot of them have come back

[1:06:43] around years later and actually help ask

[1:06:45] for coaching and I've helped them with

[1:06:46] businesses and come back together but I

[1:06:49] had to have like the courage to leave

[1:06:51] and be alone again essentially wow and

[1:06:53] just believe like hey this is what my

[1:06:55] calling is do you think your being alone

[1:06:57] as a child when your brother was in

[1:06:59] prison you didn't have any friends sort

[1:07:00] of prepared you for that sense of is I

[1:07:03] mean all through elementary school

[1:07:04] middle school high school I was like

[1:07:07] very like a lot of inner turmoil just

[1:07:10] felt like alone all the time M yeah and

[1:07:12] it's what made me early on it was what

[1:07:14] made me so driven to prove people wrong

[1:07:16] like yeah I was picked last on sports

[1:07:18] teams that's hilarious

[1:07:21] Elementary you guys I'm sitting across

[1:07:23] room

[1:07:23] LS and yeah I'm just saying who did you

[1:07:27] go to school with like Goliath and Hulk

[1:07:29] who were like the first the first ones

[1:07:31] picked on every on every team I was like

[1:07:33] theall I was like the tall skinny like

[1:07:35] goofy looking kid right who was always

[1:07:37] like in the special needs classes

[1:07:38] because I didn't do well in school the

[1:07:40] reason but now you understand absolute

[1:07:41] value exactly the reason I created this

[1:07:44] reason I created School of greatness was

[1:07:46] because I didn't do well in school but

[1:07:49] in sports I loved learning and I loved

[1:07:51] like the principles of getting to the

[1:07:53] achieving your dreams so I was like what

[1:07:55] if we could create a different type of

[1:07:56] school that's so cool I love it the

[1:07:58] principles that actually help us feel

[1:08:00] the most fulfilled the most loved most

[1:08:01] worthy the most accepted School of

[1:08:04] greatness so um any we're getting off

[1:08:07] track here no we're on track we've never

[1:08:09] been more on track there is no off track

[1:08:11] I want I want to be respectful because

[1:08:13] you said about an hour we're about an

[1:08:14] hour five in all right you want to get

[1:08:16] another one more question in because

[1:08:17] then I got to go over see brother Rob I

[1:08:18] know I know I know so I was just like

[1:08:19] man I could go for another hour but I

[1:08:21] want to make sure can I ask three more

[1:08:23] all right I'll try to ask answer them

[1:08:24] quickly although that is not perfect

[1:08:26] perfect perfect I want to be respectful

[1:08:28] your time this is your last if you're

[1:08:30] good we can we can finish no we'll do it

[1:08:31] we'll do it a friend of mine just I I

[1:08:33] told her I'm going out to California I'm

[1:08:34] doing a speaking event she goes every

[1:08:36] event with you is a speaking event am I

[1:08:37] right am I right um but yes we will I

[1:08:40] will you ask and I'll try to be do

[1:08:42] lightning round perfect perfect cool

[1:08:45] okay if there was a we'll have to come

[1:08:47] you have to come back on then another

[1:08:48] time CU I have many more questions oh

[1:08:50] you're lovely next time I'm out in in LA

[1:08:52] in La perfect my new second home

[1:08:54] apparently there you go

[1:08:57] like the LA now yeah it's good good box

[1:09:00] um if there was a uh a word or a phrase

[1:09:04] that you had to Mike Tyson your face and

[1:09:06] putto on and it would had to be in

[1:09:09] Reverse so that when you walked in the

[1:09:10] mirror it would reflect and you could

[1:09:12] only you could see it essentially what

[1:09:14] would that word or saying be well I

[1:09:16] already mik Tyson it on my well it's not

[1:09:18] mik Tyson it it's the opposite of it I

[1:09:20] did it that's the literally the opposite

[1:09:21] of a Mike Tyson tattoo it's a white ink

[1:09:23] tattoo on my wrist can you read it

[1:09:25] stubborn gladness that's it that's cool

[1:09:27] stubborn gladness it's from a poem by my

[1:09:29] favorite poet Jack Gilbert in a relation

[1:09:32] um where he says we must have the

[1:09:33] stubbornness to accept our gladness in

[1:09:36] the ruthless furnace of the world um and

[1:09:39] I think that's everything it's not

[1:09:41] denying that the world is a furnace it's

[1:09:43] just saying you put your shoulder up

[1:09:45] against it with your optimism that's

[1:09:47] cool you're heliotropic like these Sun

[1:09:50] you turn your face to the light and you

[1:09:52] put that stubborn gladness in that's

[1:09:54] cool I like that I like that I might

[1:09:56] just go do that there you go right on

[1:09:59] the forehead the forehead reverse like

[1:10:01] ambulance you know exactly exactly I

[1:10:04] like that um this is what I call the

[1:10:06] three truths okay question now I didn't

[1:10:09] I didn't uh prep Liz for this so this

[1:10:12] will be off the cuff which I'm sure

[1:10:13] you'll be fine um let's say it's the end

[1:10:16] the last day for you many many years

[1:10:17] from now however much longer right many

[1:10:20] many years you've written many other big

[1:10:22] hits movies books anything you've wanted

[1:10:25] to create you've been able to write the

[1:10:26] story right now and create everything to

[1:10:29] Hamilton exact right right whatever it

[1:10:32] is you want to create you've created it

[1:10:34] called Jefferson uhhuh and um the last

[1:10:38] day it's a you know it's peaceful

[1:10:40] everyone knows it's the last day for you

[1:10:41] and everyone's there everyone who care

[1:10:42] about is there and uh for whatever

[1:10:44] reason everything's been erased big

[1:10:46] magic all the books everything plays

[1:10:49] whatever movies gone MH and uh your

[1:10:52] great great whatever comes up and says

[1:10:56] um here's a pen and a piece of paper Liz

[1:10:59] Can you probably call you Elizabeth they

[1:11:01] call me anti- grandma actually anti

[1:11:03] grandma Yeah I have step kids and their

[1:11:04] grandkids call me anti Grandma there you

[1:11:06] go there you go anti Grandma uh here's a

[1:11:08] pen and a piece of paper and there's

[1:11:10] nothing else to Remember You by because

[1:11:12] it's all been erased um but you can

[1:11:15] write down three truths the three truths

[1:11:17] that you know from everything you've

[1:11:19] learned all your experiences what would

[1:11:21] you would pass on to us to be the

[1:11:23] biggest lessons principles any two lips

[1:11:26] combined make a better

[1:11:28] shade number one there's only three

[1:11:31] wishes the never put water on a grease

[1:11:34] fire

[1:11:37] two and

[1:11:39] [Music]

[1:11:40] um red wine stains on a white couch are

[1:11:43] never coming out everything else can be

[1:11:45] reversed every other mistake you make in

[1:11:47] life can be reversed except that one

[1:11:49] really um uh but in but a more Earnest

[1:11:53] thing is

[1:11:57] um keep your side of the street

[1:12:00] clean

[1:12:03] um don't make yourself smaller to make

[1:12:07] other people feel better about

[1:12:10] themselves

[1:12:13] and avoid romantic

[1:12:17] entanglements when you're too young for

[1:12:19] them um it's the really like I feel like

[1:12:23] the biggest obstacle which of course it

[1:12:25] turn into you know turn into eay love

[1:12:27] but the you certainly the one piece of

[1:12:30] advice and truth that I always give to

[1:12:31] young women especially is do not be too

[1:12:35] hasty to attach your life to somebody

[1:12:38] else's life do not be too hasty to

[1:12:40] attach your life to somebody else's life

[1:12:42] and and focus on creating your own

[1:12:46] journey and your own identity because

[1:12:48] there is a terrible habit that women

[1:12:50] have the minute they are attached to

[1:12:52] somebody else is that they become that

[1:12:54] person's helper

[1:12:56] um and they live in service of that

[1:12:59] person's dream rather than their own and

[1:13:03] so just stay away from it for a while

[1:13:05] just get just back right out of that bar

[1:13:08] just like you know like if I could go

[1:13:10] back in time which I wouldn't do because

[1:13:13] I don't want to undo anything that's

[1:13:15] brought me here hanging out with you in

[1:13:17] this room right now is so good right

[1:13:19] like why would I want to take any piece

[1:13:21] of that out or else none of us are right

[1:13:23] here but in all the parallel universes

[1:13:27] I'm going back you know in

[1:13:29] 1992 on 1 Avenue in ten Street and I'm

[1:13:32] about to walk into this particular bar

[1:13:34] and I'm just picking myself up off that

[1:13:36] sidewalk and I'm putting myself in a

[1:13:38] different

[1:13:39] direction um because I'm not ready to do

[1:13:43] what I'm about to do with the guy that

[1:13:44] I'm about to meet in that bar you know

[1:13:46] um and and I'm just going to go to

[1:13:48] library

[1:13:49] instead go to the library and and learn

[1:13:52] Italian instead I'm just going to go do

[1:13:53] something else instead I'm not getting

[1:13:55] married 24 in my next life you know um

[1:13:58] so that those are those are my three

[1:13:59] Noble Truths but the thing about the

[1:14:00] lipstick is totally true I like

[1:14:04] that um very cool well I've got one

[1:14:07] final question uh and before I I ask it

[1:14:09] I want to make sure everyone goes and

[1:14:10] gets this book it's called Big magic

[1:14:13] creative living beyond fear so make sure

[1:14:15] to check this out we'll have it all

[1:14:16] linked up on the show notes here in just

[1:14:18] a second and make sure to uh follow you

[1:14:21] online where do you like to hang out the

[1:14:22] most on social Facebook Facebook um I'm

[1:14:25] Bert Liz and I'm fa a lot I have a

[1:14:27] beautiful Facebook Community perfect

[1:14:29] yeah so go hang out there tell her what

[1:14:31] you thought about this interview send

[1:14:33] her love over there but also on

[1:14:34] Instagram Twitter everywhere else too

[1:14:37] yeah I'm all over the I'm all over the

[1:14:39] social media I like it I like it um

[1:14:41] before I ask the final question I want

[1:14:42] to acknowledge you for a moment Liz uh I

[1:14:45] acknowledge you for your incredible joy

[1:14:47] for your incredible heart your spirit

[1:14:50] and for your ability to see so many

[1:14:52] people for who they are and what uh

[1:14:55] brings them Joy the world so I

[1:14:56] acknowledge you for consistently showing

[1:14:59] up even after such big wins and serving

[1:15:03] people in such an amazing loving way

[1:15:06] because you could easily write off and

[1:15:09] write people off but you have an

[1:15:11] incredible heart from this last hour

[1:15:13] just connecting with you and uh it's

[1:15:15] just an inspiration to so many so you

[1:15:17] are so lovely now I want you to pick me

[1:15:19] up again yeah I will I will I will that

[1:15:22] is so so sweet okay I know this is

[1:15:25] probably going off script but can I

[1:15:26] acknowledge you for showing people how

[1:15:29] to be a student sure you know like

[1:15:31] starting with your story of being dark

[1:15:32] and angry and disenchant disenchanted

[1:15:36] and obsessed with achievement and never

[1:15:39] satisfied and finding a way to live from

[1:15:41] a place of gratitude and now taking the

[1:15:43] mask of masculinity off which is going

[1:15:45] to be such a community service it's

[1:15:47] going to be such a community service for

[1:15:49] you to do that for so many men and women

[1:15:51] and families so keep doing what you're

[1:15:54] doing thank you I will oh I was going to

[1:15:57] fist bump you but I'm getting a full

[1:15:59] double Bill Clinton

[1:16:01] [Laughter]

[1:16:03] handshake um final question is what's

[1:16:06] your definition of

[1:16:07] greatness

[1:16:10] goodness Liz Gilbert thanks for coming

[1:16:13] on appreciate it thank youate you you

[1:16:16] are the greatest and the

[1:16:20] goodest hey guys Louis how here and

[1:16:22] thanks so much for checking out this

[1:16:23] video and this interview I hope you you

[1:16:25] loved it if you did make sure to leave a

[1:16:27] comment below and share this with your

[1:16:29] friends also I've got a huge

[1:16:31] announcement the summit of greatness is

[1:16:34] coming very soon if you love the school

[1:16:36] of greatness podcast if you love these

[1:16:37] interviews and you want more you want to

[1:16:39] connect with some of these speakers in

[1:16:41] person you want to connect with me and

[1:16:43] other people just like you who watch and

[1:16:45] listen to these interviews then make

[1:16:47] sure to sign up for the summit of

[1:16:49] greatness go to Summit ofg greatness.com

[1:16:52] to learn more you can check out more

[1:16:54] about the video that we have that we

[1:16:55] created for the summit there's a link in

[1:16:57] the description below as well it's

[1:16:59] Summit ofg greatness.com check it out

[1:17:02] right now I hope to see you there and

[1:17:04] again thanks so much for watching this

[1:17:06] video

Elizabeth Gilbert
ArtistElizabeth Gilbert

American author whose 2006 memoir Eat Pray Love — a year-long journey through Italy, India, and Indonesia in search of pleasure, devotion, and balance — became one of the most-read…

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Competitiveness is the drive to beat others at everything; ambition is the drive to become the highest version of yourself. You can be ambitious without being competitive—focused on creating your best work regardless of what anyone else is doing.
Passion is often framed as an overwhelming force, but curiosity works better for many people. It arrives as small, quiet invitations—things that catch your attention—which you follow like a trail. Over time, these small curiosities add up to a life and work that feels genuinely yours.
Distinguish between giving attention (to your work) and getting attention (from others). Focus on creating your best work rather than managing rankings or tracking external validation. Taking regular off-seasons—time away from the spotlight—also helps you remember who you are beyond the achievement.
Don't try to eliminate the fear first. Instead, relocate your focus to where the actual creative action happens—the work in front of you, right now, in this room. Fear may be present, but it doesn't have to be what you solve before creating.
Giving attention means focusing fully on the work itself, the people in front of you, the moment at hand. Getting attention means chasing visibility, platform, and approval. Creative work that endures tends to come from people focused on giving, not getting.
Creative energy doesn't sustain at peak output year-round. You work in seasons, then rest, then create again. The fallow period allows you to regenerate, remember who you are beyond your work, and return with fresh energy.

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