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Inspire

The Hidden Addiction: WhenLove Becomes a Substance

Elizabeth Gilbert
Elizabeth Gilbert
Sep 11, 2025
11 min de lectura
Ver · 6

She sits in recovery rooms now, Elizabeth Gilbert, and finally hears the language for what she's been doing her entire life. "I have always used people the way other people use substances," she told Rich Roll in a recent podcast conversation, her voice carrying the particular clarity that only comes after you've stopped lying. The sentence contains the entire arc of her new memoir, All the Way to the River: a reckoning with an addiction that recovery culture rarely names, rarely understands, yet thousands of people live out in secret, one relationship at a time.

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The Irony at the Heart

There's an irony sharp enough to wound. Gilbert wrote Eat, Pray, Love, a book that rewired how millions of people think about seeking, about love, about transformation itself. The book became a movement, a mandate, a spiritual permission slip for restlessness. Yet what she has discovered—and what she's writing about now with unflinching honesty—is that her entire life has been a desperate, skilled, beautifully-dressed performance of handing her power to other people. "Handing over of the power of your own life force to pour into somebody else is what I used to call love," she told Roll. The words land differently when they're coming from someone who taught millions about the search for meaning.

When Love Becomes a Substance: The Parallel Addictions

The new book isn't only about her addiction. Parallel to her own unraveling is the story of Rhea, her longtime partner, who died of pancreatic and liver cancer seven years ago. Rhea was a heroin and cocaine addict—many years into recovery—who suffered a catastrophic relapse shortly before her death. What Gilbert realized, in the years after Rhea's death, was that while Rhea was using cocaine and heroin, Gilbert was running her own bender: using Rhea, and the people before her, as a substance to manage her internal chaos. The two addictions became a mirror. One used drugs. The other used people. Both were looking for the same thing: relief from an unbearable internal state.

This realization shaped the entire direction of the memoir. Gilbert describes it to Roll as the intersection of two stories: her own awakening to her addiction alongside Rhea's catastrophic relapse. "The book is about my partner, Rehea, who died of pancreatic and liver cancer seven years ago, who had been a heroin and cocaine addict in recovery for many, many, many years, and then had a massive blowout bender relapse right before she died," she explained. "It's also in a parallel way about my addiction that I never had had a name for that I kept acting out in my version of her bender which is I use people the way she used cocaine and heroin."

Writing the Truth: From Fiction to Reckoning

The realization was excruciating to articulate. She tried writing about it as fiction first—a seventy-page novella loosely based on what happened. That wasn't it. Then poetry. That wasn't it either. Finally, as she described it to Roll, she had to do something radically different: "sit down and say what happened." The book she produced is "almost like a post-mortem on a crime scene," she said. "Like what happened here? How did we get to this point?" It's not a vindication. It's an investigation.

The easier part would have been to examine Rhea's relapse: insert heroin, insert cocaine, watch the personality transform. But the harder work—the work that gives the book its weight—is turning the mirror inward. How did the person who believed herself to be generous, spiritual, devoted, and deeply loving become someone who was using another human being as a substance? How did that happen? As she told Roll, the difficulty isn't in understanding the equation of drug addiction. "The harder thing is to look in the mirror and to try to deconstruct like how you went from this person who believed themselves to be something into something else altogether."

The Question of Complicity: What's My Role?

If she had written this book immediately after Rhea's death, Gilbert told Roll, it would have been a different project entirely: a story about what a nice person she was and what a terrible thing happened to her. "But I didn't know what it was," she said. She had just enough wisdom, even then, to suspect that couldn't be the full story. "It can't just be that I'm a really nice, giving, generous, loving person who ended up getting taken advantage of." There had to be something else. Something she'd participated in. Something co-created.

This is the part of recovery most people resist. Not "What happened to me?" but "What did I do?" Not victimhood, but complicity. Rhea used to say to Gilbert, whenever she started feeling sorry for herself:

"There's no victims in this room, Liz."
It was harsh and necessary—the kind of truth that only someone who knows you completely can deliver. In the podcast, Gilbert emphasized the importance of this question, what she called "rigorous honesty to start to unthread, not only why did this happen, why does this always happen?" The work is deconstructing the patterns, seeing how she was lured into the trap, understanding the wiring inside her that impulsed her to make decisions that, with time and distance, she could see clearly were not in her own interest.

The Two Relapses: Drugs and People

The memoir sits at the intersection of two addictions and two relapses. There's the substance relapse—Rhea's return to heroin and cocaine after years of recovery. And there's what we might call a relational relapse: Gilbert's pattern of abandoning herself, handing her power over to romantic partners, manipulating and controlling in the name of love, while maintaining a story about her own generosity and sacrifice. Sex and love addiction. Codependency. Manipulation and control. The clinical language doesn't quite capture how deep it goes—the ways it feels, from the inside, like devotion.

She describes herself in the podcast as repeatedly asking partners, like a character in a Dr. Seuss book: "Are you my mother? Are you my mother?" Walking around, as she put it, "handing my power over to people and asking them to give me back a little bit of it." This is the addiction nobody names. There are no pills involved. No powder. No ritual of ingestion. Just the daily, hourly handoff of your own agency to someone else, dressed up as love. She told Roll that "Addiction is giving up everything for one thing. And recovery is giving up one thing for everything." For her, that one thing was people—the belief that if she just found the right person, if she just loved hard enough, if she just made herself small enough or useful enough, she would finally be safe.

The Blind Spot: Compartmentalized Spirituality

What makes this story particularly raw is that Gilbert had what most people would consider a life of genuine spiritual progress. Meditation. Prayer. A public identity as someone who had figured something out. Yet none of it—not a single practice, not a single insight—protected her from the blind spot. She could sit in meditation and pray for clarity while simultaneously enabling someone else's active addiction and acting out her own pattern of using people. Compartmentalized spirituality, she calls it. Spiritual bypassing in real time.

The ability to be "spiritual" in one compartment of your life while your secret life—the one you hide because it would destroy both your private and public identity—continues unexamined in another. "Addicts secret lives are dark," she told Roll. "And the reason you hide your secret life is because if people knew it, it would destroy both your private and your public life." This is where the depth of the denial becomes visible: not in one catastrophic act, but in the daily compartmentalization, the constant management of multiple identities, the exhausting work of keeping the secret.

The Path to Recovery: Sobriety and Celibacy

By her own count, Gilbert was about four months away from what she calls "walking into the rooms"—entering a 12-step recovery program specifically for sex and love addiction—when she last saw Rich Roll in 2018. She was, she said, "on my last little bender." The language is telling. She doesn't call it a relationship. She calls it a bender. A using. A final desperate attempt to manage herself through another person before she had to face herself alone.

Since entering recovery, Gilbert has been sober for several years—"just for today," as she reminded Roll, echoing the 12-step principle of taking recovery one moment at a time. She's also been celibate for six years, a fact she mentioned almost in passing but which carries enormous weight. Six years of not using people as a substance. Six years of learning what it feels like to inhabit her own body and mind without handing that inhabitation over to another person. Six years of learning to be her own source of safety, her own mother, her own redemption.

This celibacy isn't punishment or shame-based denial. It's a deliberate practice of learning to be with herself, to generate her own sense of wholeness without outsourcing it to romantic connection. It's about what she describes in the podcast as developing a true friendship with herself—learning to be genuinely kind to herself, not just to others.

What the River Means

The title All the Way to the River carries a spiritual weight that feels earned. She's describing the journey to the end of denial, to the edge where you finally have to look at what you've done, what's been done to you, and most importantly, what you've done to yourself in pursuit of connection. It's the journey through the landscape of shame to the place where you can finally see clearly. The image invokes finality and also beginning—the river as ending and edge, as the place where you finally stop running.

The Teaching Deepens: From Seeking to Seeing

What's striking is that this new honesty doesn't contradict her earlier work. It deepens it. Eat, Pray, Love was about seeking. This is about seeing. About the person who looked everywhere for love finally recognizing she was running from herself the entire time. The person who wrote the book that gave permission to restlessness now writes the book that teaches the cost of it.

The recovery rooms where Gilbert now sits are full of people learning the same lessons—people in 12-step communities dedicated to sex and love addiction, to codependency. There are thousands of people recognizing themselves in this pattern: the use of others as a substance, the compartmentalized spirituality, the secret life maintained alongside a public identity. But for those of us who've built a life around her words and thought we were following a map drawn by someone who had figured something out, the admission that she hadn't—that she was lost in her own way—carries a different weight. It's not a failure. It's an expansion. The teacher is not abandoning the teaching. She's deepening it. The person who showed millions how to seek is now showing how to face yourself, which might be the harder work.

Where to go from here

For anyone recognizing themselves in Gilbert's story—the pattern of handing power over, the secret life maintained alongside a public identity, the use of relationships as a substance—the path forward begins with the same rigorous honesty she describes in the podcast. The 12-step communities she's part of (Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous, Codependents Anonymous, and others) provide structure and witness for this work. But the starting point is simply naming it: What role have I played in this pattern? How am I using people? What am I looking for them to give me that I need to learn to generate myself?

Gilbert's new memoir offers both a map and a warning. The map shows what recovery looks like: the celibacy, the relearning of self-love, the gradual expansion of capacity to be alone with yourself. The warning is that spiritual practice, wisdom, and public success don't provide automatic protection against these blind spots. The work of facing yourself is ongoing. The recovery, as she says, is taken just for today.

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Transcript

[0:00] [Music]

[0:01] I have always used people the way other

[0:03] people use substances. Handing over of

[0:06] the power of your own life force to pour

[0:09] into somebody else is what I used to

[0:11] call love. Before I could even like

[0:13] check the words, the words came out.

[0:15] Make it worse. Like I said to God like

[0:17] make it worse. There are certain things

[0:20] that I can't do that other people can

[0:22] do. And I just know that now. And I hope

[0:24] I don't forget that. Addiction is giving

[0:27] up everything for one thing. And

[0:29] recovery is giving up one thing for

[0:30] everything. Addicts secret lives are

[0:34] dark. And the reason you hide your

[0:36] secret life is because if people knew

[0:37] it, it would destroy both your private

[0:39] and your public life.

[0:41] [Music]

[0:45] We have been going back and forth for I

[0:47] don't know how long to like make this

[0:49] happen, right? But these things happen

[0:52] when they're supposed to happen. You

[0:53] know, I would have preferred you to be

[0:55] this coming on for like your 10th time

[0:57] on this show, but

[0:59] >> if we're going to do 10th time, we have

[1:00] to do first time. So, we'll start with

[1:02] first time and then we'll we'll we'll

[1:04] ramp up.

[1:05] >> Well, what I didn't expect is that we

[1:07] would be doing a little bit of what it

[1:09] was like, what happened, and what it

[1:10] what it's like now, you know? And that's

[1:12] my favorite kind of conversation to

[1:14] have, and you're in the right place in

[1:16] your life to kind of have that

[1:17] conversation right now. Thanks for the

[1:19] little coded uh introduction to

[1:22] >> inside baseball

[1:23] >> 100%. And people can take what they like

[1:25] and leave the rest. Another little

[1:26] inside baseball thing there. But yes,

[1:29] this is the moment and this is the

[1:30] subject.

[1:31] >> Yes. And Earth school is in session.

[1:33] Liz,

[1:33] >> Earth school is always in session. Rich.

[1:36] >> So that Largo show the last time that I

[1:38] saw you when I was with Adam Skolnick,

[1:41] which I do think must have been 2018.

[1:44] And I'm trying to match that up on the

[1:45] timeline of your sobriety. You were

[1:47] either in early sobriety or not quite

[1:50] sober at that time.

[1:51] >> I think I was, if I do the math, I think

[1:53] I was four months away from walking into

[1:55] the rooms.

[1:56] >> Oh, wow. Wow.

[1:57] >> I was on my last little bender.

[1:59] >> Yeah.

[2:00] >> Yeah.

[2:01] >> You feel like you're in a really good

[2:02] place right now, though.

[2:03] >> Oh, thank you. Just energetically here.

[2:06] Thank you. I am just for today. And I

[2:09] think that's the important thing to

[2:12] remember because I get into this place

[2:13] where I start negotiating with the

[2:15] universe and I'm like, let's keep this

[2:18] like this is good. Like let's keep

[2:20] stable. I think I've had enough of a

[2:22] curriculum and I don't need any more big

[2:25] lessons and let's not have the ground

[2:27] fall out from beneath my feet anymore.

[2:29] Let me not be a creator of chaos. Let me

[2:31] not have any chaos created upon me. And

[2:34] the answer I always hear back is like,

[2:35] let's just do today.

[2:36] >> Yeah. I mean, grip too tightly to that.

[2:39] We'll see what happens. Usually not

[2:40] good, right?

[2:41] >> Trust your 24. Let's just uh you're good

[2:43] right now.

[2:43] >> This is just another, you know, lesson

[2:45] in Earth school of deepening your

[2:47] surrender. And

[2:48] >> you don't get to hold on to what you're

[2:50] not giving back.

[2:53] >> For sure. 100%.

[2:55] >> Was the decision to write about this

[2:58] stage of your life uh a difficult one to

[3:01] make or did it feel natural to you?

[3:04] >> It was really difficult. I mean, so the

[3:06] book is about my partner, Rehea, who

[3:10] died of pancreatic and liver cancer

[3:12] seven years ago, who had been a heroin

[3:15] and cocaine addict in recovery for many,

[3:17] many, many years, and then had a massive

[3:20] blowout bender relapse right before she

[3:23] died. So the book is about that

[3:25] experience which was extremely harrowing

[3:27] and I was her partner and her caregiver

[3:29] during that but it's also in a parallel

[3:31] way about my addiction that I never had

[3:35] had a name for that I kept acting out in

[3:38] my version of her bender which is I use

[3:41] people the way she used cocaine and

[3:43] heroin. So sex and love addiction,

[3:45] codependency,

[3:47] manipulation and control trying to

[3:49] outsource my care to whoever would do

[3:52] it. um like are you my mother?

[3:55] >> Are you my mother? Like that Dr. Seuss

[3:56] book just walking around like handing my

[3:58] power over to people and asking them to

[4:00] give me back a little bit of it. Um so

[4:02] the book is about that relationship and

[4:05] it's about my awakening to that. But I

[4:08] was so rattled after she died. I mean I

[4:11] was rattled with grief but I was also

[4:12] rattled with like what happened? How did

[4:16] the person who was the most trusted

[4:18] person in my entire life, like the one

[4:20] person who I trusted without any

[4:23] reservation in my life, the one person

[4:25] who could always make me feel safe, turn

[4:27] into like an absolute vampire? Um, who

[4:31] was using me and degrading herself and

[4:34] me? What did that mean? What did it mean

[4:37] about us? What I mean, it was so

[4:38] difficult to to unthread that. And there

[4:40] was a part of me that didn't even want

[4:41] to look at it because it was so

[4:43] excruciating. There's a part in the book

[4:44] where I say like when I get to the

[4:46] really bad part, I'm like, I don't even

[4:47] I still don't want to tell this story.

[4:49] Like I still don't want this to be how

[4:50] that story ended. So I wrote right after

[4:53] she died, I wrote sort of a little

[4:55] nolla, like a little 70page piece of

[4:58] fiction sort of loosely based on it. And

[5:00] I'm like, you're hiding from this thing.

[5:02] Like this isn't it. And then I tried to

[5:04] write it as a book of poetry and I'm

[5:05] like, that's not it. And then finally it

[5:07] was like, dude, you have to actually

[5:08] just sit down

[5:10] >> and say what happened. And that's what

[5:12] the book is is just um it's almost like

[5:14] a post-mortem

[5:16] >> uh on a crime scene like what happened

[5:18] here? How did we get to this point

[5:21] >> and how do we get out of that point once

[5:23] we're in it? It's hard and painful

[5:25] enough to look at Rehea and try to solve

[5:29] the equation of how she went from one

[5:31] person to the next. But that's a pretty

[5:34] easy equation to solve for. You know,

[5:37] insert heroin, you know, cocaine,

[5:39] amphetamines, you know, all of it,

[5:40] right? whatever you're inserting

[5:42] >> it's like no surprise that there is a

[5:44] complete you know character shift as a

[5:46] result of that. The harder thing is to

[5:49] look in the mirror and to try to

[5:50] deconstruct like how you went from this

[5:54] person who believed themselves to be

[5:57] something into something else

[5:58] altogether. like how did you get lured

[6:00] into that trap and what is you know kind

[6:02] of the wiring inside of you that

[6:05] impulsed you to make decisions that with

[6:08] time distance space and recovery you can

[6:10] see clearly were not in your best

[6:12] interest

[6:13] >> right and if I had written this book

[6:16] directly after Rya died it would have

[6:17] been a book about what a nice person I

[6:19] am and what a terrible thing happened to

[6:21] me

[6:21] >> you know and I think I had just enough

[6:23] wisdom and perspective at that time to

[6:26] be like it can't be that simple can it

[6:28] you know like it can't just be that I'm

[6:29] a really nice, giving, generous, loving

[6:32] person who ended up getting taken

[6:34] advantage of. But I didn't know what it

[6:36] was. And the question I think that is

[6:40] always present in any of the 12step

[6:42] rooms that deal with relationships, and

[6:43] I'm in all of them, is what is my role

[6:46] in this? How did I co-create this? Um, I

[6:50] mean, Rehea used to say to me, one of

[6:51] the things I loved about her is whenever

[6:52] I was feeling even remotely sorry for

[6:54] myself, she would be like, "There's no

[6:56] victims in this room, Liz.

[6:58] there's no victims in this room and I'm

[7:00] like I sure feel like there's one, you

[7:02] know, like I sure feel like there's one.

[7:05] So the rigorous honesty

[7:07] to start to unthread,

[7:10] not only why did this happen, why does

[7:13] this always happen?

[7:15] >> You know, how did I end up here? It's

[7:18] not even just a book about how did I end

[7:19] up here. It's how did I end up here

[7:21] again when I kind of thought I had my

[7:24] life in order in a certain way. You

[7:27] know, it's like

[7:28] >> the Zen say that, you know, first they

[7:30] pull the rug out from under your feet

[7:31] >> and then they pull the floor out from

[7:34] under the rug and then they pull the

[7:35] ground out from under the floor and now

[7:37] you're ready to begin. And that's sort

[7:40] of the state I was in after she died

[7:41] where I was like, there's no rug,

[7:42] there's no floor, there's no ground. I

[7:45] don't know how that any of this happened

[7:47] or who I am. And I'm somebody who

[7:49] thought she knew and didn't. that had to

[7:53] get untangled first though before you

[7:55] would be open and willing enough to do

[7:57] that inside glance.

[7:59] >> Yeah.

[8:00] >> Yeah. I have so many questions about

[8:02] this, but I think it it would be good to

[8:03] spend a few minutes elaborating further

[8:06] on on sex and love addiction.

[8:08] >> Yeah.

[8:08] >> Because it is a tricky thing to really

[8:10] wrap your head around if you're not

[8:12] familiar with it. Everybody has some

[8:15] connection to substance abuse addiction

[8:18] or gambling. And you know, there's

[8:20] there's many varieties of addiction. And

[8:22] it's great that there's a a kind of

[8:24] greater conversation happening around

[8:26] all of these things to to normalize

[8:28] them. But I feel like sex and love

[8:31] addiction isn't really all that well

[8:33] understood and it's still attached to a

[8:36] lot of like taboos and fears. And I

[8:38] think maybe that's what keeps it a

[8:40] little bit more in the dark. Um, so

[8:43] maybe talk a little bit more about what

[8:46] it is and and maybe how even someone

[8:49] could self- diagnose themselves.

[8:52] >> I think the best way to do it is

[8:56] to do this like a qualification and just

[8:57] tell my story and um and I think that

[9:00] people may recognize parts of themselves

[9:03] in it. I would be loathed to start

[9:06] giving tools of diagnosis for something

[9:08] that can be so subtle. But I can say

[9:11] this about me. I can say that what it

[9:14] manifests as in me is a sincere

[9:20] belief that there's somebody out there

[9:22] who I can meet who's going to make me

[9:25] feel okay lastingly. Um, and that my job

[9:29] is to find that person. And

[9:32] it's a difficult thing because of course

[9:34] culture teaches us exactly to do that.

[9:36] And especially if you're a woman, you're

[9:38] very much taught that. That's a story

[9:40] that's, you know, as old as the hills

[9:41] that girls and women are taught. There's

[9:43] an incompletion in me and I'm going to

[9:45] go find the person who's gonna who's

[9:47] going to complete me. That's the the

[9:49] sort of soft way to describe it. The way

[9:52] that I would describe how I experience

[9:53] it is that I have always used people the

[9:56] way other people use substances. So

[9:59] there are people who I have used as

[10:01] sedatives and there are people who I've

[10:03] used as stimulants.

[10:06] And what I want to take complete

[10:07] ownership over as I tell my story is

[10:10] what that has made me into over time is

[10:13] somebody who can be extremely

[10:15] manipulative. And that's the sort of

[10:17] side effect of this. It's like if I

[10:19] don't feel okay and I need to find

[10:21] somebody who's going to make me feel

[10:23] okay, then in order to get that need

[10:25] met, I'm going to have to figure out how

[10:27] to be an operator in terms of how do I

[10:30] have to present? like what do I have to

[10:32] become in order to get what we call in

[10:35] some of these rooms lava which is love

[10:37] attention validation and and acceptance

[10:39] right so that's what I'm longing for

[10:41] because I can't generate that within

[10:42] myself

[10:43] >> right so I need to go get this lava that

[10:45] like somebody else has this somebody's

[10:47] the plug like somebody's got this stuff

[10:50] I don't have it um and so what do I have

[10:54] to do like what ends like any addict

[10:57] it's like what manipulations do I have

[10:59] to do what lies do I have to Well, what

[11:01] tricks do I have to turn in order to get

[11:05] your eye contact on me? And the words

[11:07] that I need you to say, I need to make

[11:09] you say those words. I need to make you

[11:11] make these promises to me. I need to

[11:13] completely abandon myself in order to

[11:16] get you to do this thing for me. And if

[11:19] I don't get the thing that I need, I'll

[11:22] go get it somewhere else, regardless of

[11:24] what commitment I've made to somebody.

[11:26] And so when I look at my particular

[11:28] history with this, what I see is for 35

[11:31] uninterrupted years, tiny little

[11:33] interruption when I written Witten

[11:34] Roadie, pray love, there was like a

[11:36] 9-month period where I wasn't doing

[11:37] this, but which was actually the

[11:39] healthiest time of my life until now.

[11:42] >> I was just going

[11:44] between sedative, stimulant, seditive,

[11:47] stimulant.

[11:48] >> This person is extremely exciting. This

[11:50] person is extremely calming. you know,

[11:52] like, okay, now I'm so calm that I can't

[11:55] bear the restlessness and the

[11:57] irritability and the discontent. So now

[11:59] I have to go find somebody who's

[12:00] absolutely thrilling, who's going to

[12:02] like light me up until they withhold and

[12:05] then I go insane and now I need another

[12:08] sedative and now I need another

[12:09] stimulant. And this is this is what I

[12:10] did to great cost, you know, to great

[12:14] cost to me, to great cost to other

[12:16] people. Um, it involved cheating on

[12:19] people, allowing myself to be cheated

[12:21] on, breaking up other people's families

[12:23] and relationships. There's a

[12:24] ruthlessness

[12:26] that any addict has, which is what I

[12:28] have to do to get this, I will do

[12:31] >> no matter what it costs me or anybody

[12:32] else. And I knew my entire life that

[12:35] there was something wrong with me

[12:36] because I could see that other people

[12:37] weren't doing this,

[12:38] >> you know, like I think that's something

[12:39] that every addict kind of knows from an

[12:42] earlier age than we could admit, which

[12:43] is like other people aren't doing this.

[12:46] Like somehow other people are just going

[12:47] and having a Tuesday while I'm out here

[12:50] playing this like high stakes roulette

[12:52] with my life and with my body

[12:54] >> and with my heart and with my spirit,

[12:56] bringing other people into danger with

[12:57] me, like putting myself at risk and not

[13:00] being able to stop.

[13:01] >> And that low level of self-awareness

[13:03] drives shame and isolation and

[13:06] loneliness. and you start to

[13:08] compartmentalize it and create this

[13:10] secret life because deep down even

[13:12] though you know you're not ready to

[13:14] confront it, um you know that you need

[13:16] to hide and shroud it from

[13:18] >> from everybody else.

[13:20] >> There's a line I quote in the book from

[13:21] Gabriel Garcia Marquez who said,

[13:23] "Everybody has three lives. A public

[13:25] life, a private life, and a secret life.

[13:27] And the private life is the life you

[13:28] share with your family and your friends,

[13:30] but the secret life is the life you

[13:31] share with no one." And addicts secret

[13:34] lives are dark, you know, and the reason

[13:37] you hide your secret life is because it

[13:39] would destroy if people knew it, it

[13:41] would destroy both your private and your

[13:43] public life. Like if people knew what

[13:45] you were up to, you don't even approve

[13:46] of what you're up to.

[13:47] >> But the trick there is that uh the

[13:50] addict thinks that it's their secret

[13:51] life. They don't realize how patently

[13:53] obvious it be

[13:57] like we all saw that a long time before

[13:59] you did, you know,

[14:00] >> but there is something uh uniquely

[14:01] incipid about sex and love addiction

[14:03] because it isn't necessarily immediately

[14:06] obvious. you know, you're you're not

[14:08] going to be necessarily late for work

[14:10] or, you know, there's the general

[14:11] evidence that uh you know, people use to

[14:14] kind of point to someone and say they

[14:15] have a problem

[14:16] >> isn't something that you can like do

[14:20] with that kind of facility with this

[14:22] condition.

[14:24] >> Except all those things that happen to

[14:26] addicts also happen in these kind of

[14:29] obsessive malstrms of like the vortex of

[14:33] insanity that people can get into with

[14:34] each other. Like not only can you be

[14:36] late for work, you can destroy your

[14:37] entire career. You know, like you're

[14:39] going to have an affair at work with a

[14:41] supervisor and you're going to lose your

[14:44] job. You're going to hit on an intern

[14:46] and you're going to be like dismissed

[14:48] from the faculty of the university where

[14:50] you teach. Like your marriage is going

[14:51] to be destroyed. All the stuff that also

[14:54] happens in addiction also happens here.

[14:56] in addition to killing yourself and

[14:58] killing others, you know, it's one of

[15:00] the leading causes of suicide and

[15:01] homicide is like the horror that people

[15:04] get into with each other where like I

[15:07] mean you read it every open the papers,

[15:09] it's like every single day people are

[15:10] killing their partners um and or killing

[15:14] themselves over relationships and over

[15:16] heartbreak and divorce is one of the

[15:18] leading causes of suicide

[15:20] >> and sex and love addiction can be a

[15:21] thing that leads to divorce, right? So,

[15:23] so I actually would argue that it's

[15:25] every bit as destructive. But the tricky

[15:27] thing is the culture doesn't say to you

[15:30] in a million different ways, what will

[15:31] cure you is if you do more heroin or

[15:33] gamble more. What will what the culture

[15:35] teaches you in a million ways is what

[15:37] will cure you is finding true love. Um,

[15:40] and so you're being taught that the

[15:42] solution I mean you'll be told to go out

[15:45] and try again.

[15:46] >> Yeah. You just haven't found the right

[15:47] person.

[15:47] >> You just haven't found the right person

[15:48] yet. So, how many more people was I

[15:52] going to try this with?

[15:54] You know, and it's like, "Anybody want

[15:56] to be my fourth spouse? Like, anybody

[15:58] want to do this again?" Like, really?

[16:00] You want to roll the dice with me? Like,

[16:01] it's it's like how many more times, how

[16:03] many more different kinds of people?

[16:05] Like, I put the hours in on this. Like,

[16:07] men, women, open relationships, closed

[16:10] relationships. Like, I like I'm like,

[16:13] "Let me try. and was constantly trying

[16:15] to get the levels right and never able

[16:19] to get the levels.

[16:19] >> But that's why Rya is such a fantastic

[16:21] gift. You know, back to the Earth school

[16:23] idea. I mean, for people don't know,

[16:25] maybe you can explain it, but

[16:26] essentially the notion is that, you

[16:29] know, we've all volunteered for this

[16:31] incarnation. Uh, and the curriculum is

[16:35] presenting us with all of these uh

[16:37] assignments, which are essentially

[16:39] obstacles and hardship and suffering to

[16:42] test our ability to navigate them. each

[16:44] of which is its own individual

[16:46] opportunity for growth, evolution, and

[16:48] and ultimately liberation, right? Should

[16:51] we choose to accept it? Like, you know,

[16:53] in this mission impossible, you know,

[16:55] kind of context.

[16:56] >> And, you know, here comes Rehea, this,

[16:59] you know, comet, right? Who's just like

[17:01] the the most larger than-l life

[17:03] character you could ever imagine, like

[17:05] just catnip for somebody who's a people

[17:08] pleaser. Like the charisma of this

[17:09] individual,

[17:10] >> addict. And I can't imagine like the

[17:13] >> tractor beam or like center of gravity

[17:15] that this person held that made it

[17:18] impossible for you to, you know, it was

[17:20] undeniable, right? But because this

[17:23] person was so large like a comet, like

[17:26] she was going to flame out, right? And

[17:28] in the most fantastic way and it gets so

[17:31] dark like at the end there. But

[17:33] ultimately this is exactly what you

[17:35] needed to interrupt that pattern because

[17:37] short of that you could have gone

[17:38] through a string of 10 more

[17:40] relationships and kept that you know

[17:42] kettle at a low boil and never you know

[17:45] met your maker to learn the lesson that

[17:47] you needed to learn in order to you know

[17:50] evolve to this new phase.

[17:53] >> You just said that so well and that's

[17:55] that's exactly it. And I remember when

[17:57] she was flaming out and my life was

[18:00] tanking I and I was so trapped in this

[18:03] nightmare. Like suddenly this beautiful

[18:05] love story turned into Sid and Nancy.

[18:07] I'm like what's going on? How is my

[18:09] house?

[18:09] >> You're literally tying her off and

[18:10] shooting her. It's crazy stuff.

[18:12] >> How am I going down to Chinatown to get

[18:14] clean needles? How am I

[18:18] like the lady who wrote Eat Pray Love.

[18:20] >> Yeah.

[18:20] >> Like taking

[18:21] >> This is like the A24 thousand of dollars

[18:24] out of my ATM to buy Coke.

[18:26] from teenagers in the East Village for

[18:29] my partner so that she'll love me. Like,

[18:31] how am I in this? You know, I mean, and

[18:33] how am I in this is I think I don't

[18:35] think it's possible for anybody to go

[18:37] through their Earth school curriculum

[18:38] without having multiple occasions of how

[18:40] am I in this? Like, how how did I end up

[18:44] I thought this was a

[18:45] >> parachute, but it's a backpack full of

[18:47] bricks. Like, you know, like what's

[18:48] happening? Like, how am I? And I

[18:50] remember at that time just being so

[18:53] bewildered like what how is this

[18:56] happening? And I went for I remember

[18:58] going for a walk and leaving her in this

[19:00] like cloud of cigarette smoke and drugs

[19:02] in our apartment and walking down the

[19:04] street in New York and I was like I need

[19:06] to pray. I need to pray. I need to pray.

[19:07] And I don't think I've ever told this

[19:09] story before, but you just spurred it in

[19:11] me which is the weirdest prayer came out

[19:13] of me. Um, I was on like East Ninth

[19:16] Street, broad daylight, and I was like,

[19:19] and before I could even like check the

[19:21] words, the words came out, make it

[19:22] worse. Like I said to God, like, make it

[19:25] worse. Whatever this thing is you're

[19:28] doing to my life, this like sledgehammer

[19:31] that you've taken to my life, I don't

[19:34] get it. I don't I still don't get what

[19:37] this is. I know this is this has got to

[19:39] be

[19:40] >> part of an Earth school curriculum, but

[19:42] all I see is like useless suffering and

[19:44] pain. So don't be easy on me. If there's

[19:47] something that you're trying to show me,

[19:49] hammer it harder. Like destroy me so

[19:51] that I can see this because there's

[19:53] obviously something I can't see yet. And

[19:55] it did get worse. And I still couldn't

[19:57] see it. You know, like it took another

[20:00] it took a year after she died for me to

[20:03] finally be like, oh. And it took

[20:07] somebody sitting me down, you know, and

[20:10] 12stepping me essentially and just

[20:12] saying like, "I've watched you do this

[20:13] for 35 years

[20:15] >> and there's a room for this and I think

[20:16] you're not well

[20:18] >> and I'll go with you to a meeting." And

[20:20] I was like, "Me a meeting?

[20:23] >> I'm not the drug addict."

[20:24] >> Mhm.

[20:26] >> Yeah. It's so interesting because you're

[20:28] you're you're in the midst of it and

[20:30] can't see it for what it is. which I

[20:31] think gets to that other earlier point

[20:33] about like it is it's it's tough to

[20:35] notice and until you have some education

[20:38] into what this thing actually is for you

[20:42] to be able to identify it.

[20:43] >> Yeah.

[20:44] >> Paint the picture of this relationship

[20:46] with with Rehea like how it began and

[20:49] kind of where it ended up so so people

[20:51] understand you know kind of the

[20:53] trajectory.

[20:54] >> It was a very slow burn. It was like she

[20:56] was an acquaintance and then she was a

[20:57] neighbor and then she was a friend and

[20:59] then she was a close friend and then she

[21:00] was my best friend and then she was

[21:03] there was a moment I reached where I was

[21:05] like oh she's indispensable like I saw

[21:08] the impact that she had on me that her

[21:11] incredibly grounding reassuring and

[21:14] strong presence had on me. So I'm

[21:15] somebody who has always had a very deep

[21:17] fear of people and a fear of the

[21:20] unpredictability of people and the like

[21:24] anyone can go off at any m there's

[21:26] reasons that I have this fear but like

[21:28] >> folks is crazy here you know like and my

[21:31] job that I took on from earliest

[21:33] childhood was like vigilance you know

[21:36] like vigil like you must be vigilant you

[21:38] must never never rest because these

[21:41] people are capable of anything so

[21:44] read the room, feel the room. I can read

[21:46] a face from a hundred yards. I can feel

[21:49] I can sit in a house with 10 people in

[21:51] it in different rooms and I can tell you

[21:52] what everyone is feeling. Like it's

[21:53] essential for me to know and monitor and

[21:56] track the moods and the sensations of

[21:57] everyone in the room for my own safety.

[21:59] This is how I

[21:59] >> You grew up in an alcoholic house.

[22:01] >> I grew up in an alcoholic influence,

[22:03] you know, and I grew up with children of

[22:05] alcoholics and and deep alcoholic damage

[22:08] multiple generations down the line on

[22:10] both sides of the family. So, I'm

[22:13] nervous and I think and nervous is my

[22:16] baseline. So, Rehea shows up and she's

[22:20] not nervous and whatever insanity

[22:23] anybody brings. She'd lived on the

[22:25] streets. She'd been in Riker Riker's

[22:26] Island. She'd been in insane asylums.

[22:28] She'd like been in the Tomkins Square

[22:30] riots. Like, she could handle

[22:34] everybody and everything in this

[22:36] seemingly effortless jiu-jitsu way. and

[22:38] whatever crazy anybody brought, she just

[22:41] met it with this sort of cleareyed like,

[22:42] "Why are you being crazy, man?" And like

[22:44] just she was like she could just hop

[22:46] out. She was like the calm dog in the

[22:49] herd of like in the pack of dogs who all

[22:51] the other dogs laid down when Rya walked

[22:52] in. So when I saw what that did to my

[22:55] nervous system, I I experienced for the

[22:58] first time in my life when she was in

[22:59] the room this feeling of absolute

[23:00] safety. And once I experienced that and

[23:03] externalized that feeling of safety

[23:05] where you are the provider of that,

[23:08] you can't leave now because otherwise I

[23:10] have to go back

[23:12] >> to the anxiety field that I live in all

[23:14] the time. And that began my addiction to

[23:17] her

[23:18] >> and it starts with hey I you can you can

[23:21] stay rentree in my h you know you can do

[23:25] I have a spot for you. Yeah. like all

[23:27] these sort of moves that you're making

[23:29] unconscious to bring her closer and make

[23:31] yourself indispensable.

[23:32] >> Exactly. I will make myself

[23:34] indispensable to you

[23:36] >> because you have become indispensable to

[23:38] me. None of this was above the level of

[23:41] consciousness and none of this was ever

[23:43] spoken. Right? This was like this is the

[23:45] secret operating system that I've got

[23:47] underneath me that's hustling to make

[23:50] sure that my needs are met because I

[23:52] can't meet them.

[23:55] So, I constantly find myself in this

[23:56] situation, a situation I suspect many of

[23:59] you can relate to, where almost every

[24:00] day, it seems, I'm being pulled in a

[24:02] thousand directions. Too much to do. But

[24:05] I need to not just show up for it all,

[24:08] but show up with my best self, with

[24:11] clarity, and with purpose. And I will

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[26:21] [Music]

[26:24] With this hypervigilance and this sense

[26:27] that the world is not a safe place to

[26:30] encounter somebody who is completely

[26:32] unafraid, is insanely truthful in every

[26:35] regard, has no care for other people's

[26:38] opinions. Like there's something

[26:40] intoxicating about being in the presence

[26:43] of someone who feels that liberated when

[26:45] when you're so guarded and so afraid to

[26:47] be yourself and trying to figure out

[26:48] which mask you have to wear in which

[26:50] context which is exhausting, right? And

[26:52] then here's this person who doesn't have

[26:54] any of that. How is that possible?

[26:56] Right? Yeah.

[26:57] >> And you're the successful one and she's

[27:00] the hairdresser who's weathered hardship

[27:03] and you know is not really living in the

[27:06] same socioeconomic you know sort of

[27:08] strata as you are and operating in a

[27:10] very different world.

[27:11] >> Yeah. So I was like I'll bring you up to

[27:15] my strata which is where you've always

[27:17] wanted to be

[27:18] >> and she pulls instead she pulls you

[27:20] down.

[27:20] >> And we did a little of both.

[27:22] >> A little. Yeah.

[27:23] >> We did a little of both. You know I mean

[27:24] she did write an incredible meal. you

[27:26] guys did a tour together

[27:27] >> and and and I helped her get it

[27:28] published. Like there were things I was

[27:30] doing for her. I mean, I'm very careful

[27:31] in the book to say there's two things I

[27:32] don't want to do. I don't want to

[27:34] pathize every single instance of this

[27:36] relationship. And I also don't want to

[27:37] idealize. So that's also why it took me

[27:40] so long to unthread this book. Like

[27:42] where's the truth here that's somewhere

[27:44] between pathology and idealization?

[27:46] Because we loved each other a lot and we

[27:50] cared for each other. comes across very

[27:53] and I think you do do an excellent job

[27:55] of showing like listen like this was an

[27:58] incredible person who had insane gifts

[28:01] >> who was so courageous and unafraid and

[28:04] capable and was this person that

[28:07] everyone wanted to hang all these

[28:08] amazing qualities right and also this

[28:11] you know self-destructive

[28:13] um thing inside of her

[28:15] >> and this was a person and here's what I

[28:17] could and so once I'm blinded by need

[28:20] now I cannot see the full truth of you

[28:23] because once I've idealized you and

[28:26] pedestalized you and decided that you're

[28:28] my solution and that you're my drug and

[28:30] you're the reason I don't have to suffer

[28:31] anymore, it's imperative that you not

[28:35] have feet of clay. You can't I mean this

[28:37] is a child's idealization of an adult.

[28:39] It's like you you are my I mean I made

[28:42] her into my higher power. Like

[28:43] absolutely. I was like in any

[28:45] circumstance where I would now go to

[28:47] what I call my higher power where I

[28:50] would now get silent and pray and

[28:51] meditate and ask source what should I do

[28:54] I called Ry and said what should I do

[28:56] >> and she would tell me great advice most

[28:58] of the time about what to do but what I

[29:00] wasn't seeing through that haze of

[29:02] idealization was for instance this was

[29:05] somebody who had 13 years sober I mean

[29:07] this was somebody who was like a hard

[29:10] lowbottom drug addict like living on a

[29:14] park bench with a needle in her arm.

[29:16] Drug addict, multiple stays in jails,

[29:18] like hard hard hard drug addict who

[29:21] finally found recovery in 12step and

[29:24] whose ego decided after a certain amount

[29:26] of time in 12step she didn't need it

[29:27] anymore and decided that she didn't need

[29:29] to go to the rooms anymore and announced

[29:31] to me and to the world, I am no longer

[29:34] an addict.

[29:35] >> I've cured myself of my addiction cuz

[29:37] I'm Rya [ __ ] Elias. But the best part

[29:40] is is that she says she says like I want

[29:42] to start drinking wine because my

[29:44] friends are pressuring. It's like she

[29:46] put it on her friends,

[29:47] >> her family. She said they had an

[29:48] intervention. My friends had a I don't

[29:50] even know if this is true. I doubt that

[29:52] it is. Like I think

[29:53] >> we need you to start drinking.

[29:54] >> We need you to start drinking the wine

[29:55] cuz it's uncomfortable for us when we're

[29:57] at the table drinking and you're not.

[29:58] And she's telling me this and she's

[30:00] saying I'm going to start drinking

[30:01] again. Oh, and by the way, don't tell

[30:03] any of my friends in 12step because

[30:04] they're going to be really upset. So

[30:05] this is going to be our little secret.

[30:06] this from the woman who taught me the

[30:08] phrase, "We're only as sick as our

[30:10] secrets." Right? So, she comes to me and

[30:12] says, "Like, I want to start drinking.

[30:14] It's not a big deal. Alcohol is not a

[30:16] problem for me. I'm a heroin addict, not

[30:18] an alcoholic. Don't tell anyone. And I

[30:21] also kind of hate alcohol." And I was

[30:22] like, "Okay."

[30:25] You know, and because I had created a

[30:26] construct in which everything she did

[30:28] was was right, strong, powerful, and

[30:30] cool. I'm like, "Rya is so cool." Like,

[30:32] "Rya is so cool. She's the addict who

[30:34] can drink, you know." So this is the

[30:36] kind of stuff that like when you give

[30:38] your power to away and you give your

[30:40] perspective away and you give your

[30:42] wisdom away, what you're left with is

[30:45] just I have to go along with whatever

[30:47] you say because I've fully given you my

[30:50] power. I don't have the power to be like

[30:52] hang on

[30:54] what your friends had a reverse

[30:56] intervention and they told you they want

[30:58] you to start drinking. That doesn't even

[31:00] make sense.

[31:01] >> Yeah. It it collapses on top of itself.

[31:04] Instead, I'm like, "Let's get a bottle

[31:05] of wine," you know? Um, and and so I can

[31:08] see now that

[31:10] >> she was slipping back into losing

[31:13] herself at the same time that I was

[31:16] losing myself into her. So, of course,

[31:18] the the end game was a disaster.

[31:21] I'm curious around your

[31:24] response

[31:26] now that you've had time to reflect on

[31:28] it when she gets diagnosed with cancer,

[31:32] which that was like 2016.

[31:35] >> Mhm.

[31:35] >> Like in a perverse way, that is almost

[31:38] your opportunity to really lock it in

[31:40] because now she really can be dependent

[31:42] upon you.

[31:43] >> I will take care of your every need.

[31:44] >> Yeah.

[31:45] >> And I remember in the horror of the

[31:48] diagnosis and some things happened very

[31:49] quickly. There's that famous line in F.

[31:53] Scott Fitzgerald about first slowly then

[31:54] quickly. It's been used a million times,

[31:56] but that's often how benders go, you

[31:59] know, like first she sort of slowly

[32:00] drank amister bitters and then she sort

[32:04] of slowly drank wine and then she

[32:05] started smoking cigarettes again and

[32:06] then she started doing mushrooms and I

[32:08] was going MDMA again and then it's like

[32:10] we might as well have a little cocaine,

[32:11] you know, and then it just like builds

[32:13] and builds and builds. But the slow love

[32:16] story that I was having with her

[32:17] escalated immediately upon that

[32:19] announcement that she had 6 months to

[32:20] live. I'd been hiding that love for her

[32:23] from me, from her, and from my husband

[32:25] up until that point. But the thought

[32:27] that she was going to die very quickly

[32:31] was the energizing excuse that was

[32:33] needed for me to finally say this thing

[32:36] that I hadn't been saying for years,

[32:37] which is this. I am in love with this

[32:39] person.

[32:40] >> And I left my marriage to go to be with

[32:42] her. And I remember even in the the

[32:45] horror of I'm losing the foundational

[32:48] person in my life in the first weeks of

[32:51] her diagnosis, I remember showing up at

[32:53] her apartment with my suitcase

[32:56] and saying, "I'm not going anywhere." I

[32:59] mean, like a threat. When I see it now,

[33:00] it's like it's kind of a threatening

[33:02] thing to say to somebody. I didn't say,

[33:03] "Do you want me to stay?" I just said,

[33:06] "I'm not going anywhere." And for

[33:09] somebody who can't take care of herself

[33:11] and gets her worth and value and esteem

[33:14] from what I can give to others and then

[33:16] have reflected back to me about my value

[33:18] from what I'm giving. This is a perfect

[33:20] storm because

[33:22] the feeling I had was one of utter I

[33:24] remember this deep calm where I was like

[33:26] now I know what I'm here for. My purpose

[33:29] on earth is clear. I am here to serve

[33:32] Reya's every need. I don't have to have

[33:35] an identity anymore. I don't have to

[33:37] have any needs. I can completely

[33:39] abdicate responsibility for myself. No

[33:41] one would blame me for it. I mean, I'm

[33:43] being heroic. I'm showing up for

[33:44] somebody who's dying.

[33:45] >> Yeah, that's the added bonus. Like, look

[33:47] what a good person I am. Like, I'm

[33:49] commit I'm committed to this other

[33:51] person,

[33:51] >> which is what I've always wanted to be,

[33:52] right?

[33:53] >> So, it's this weird thing because on the

[33:55] one hand,

[33:57] there's this liberation from the

[33:59] marriage that wasn't working. like you

[34:01] were able to stand up and speak your

[34:03] truth and there's a freeing very healthy

[34:05] you know kind of piece to that

[34:08] >> but only so that you could entrap

[34:10] yourself in you know in a situation and

[34:13] kind of indulge this this you know

[34:15] addictive tendency.

[34:17] >> Yeah. One of my friends in the rooms she

[34:19] and I have a our sort of daily

[34:23] kind of test of sobriety. Sobriety is

[34:26] kind of easy to chart when you're a

[34:27] substance addict. Like you're either

[34:29] using you're either drinking or

[34:30] >> it's hard to know when you've realiz

[34:36] one one definition I love of relapse is

[34:39] that in all the relationship programs of

[34:41] 12step is relapse is returning to your

[34:43] original role in the family system. So

[34:46] good, right? So, if I'm the caregiver,

[34:50] if I'm the one who's got to make

[34:51] everyone happy, if I'm the one who has

[34:53] to take care of all the grown-ups, if

[34:55] I'm the golden child, like that's a

[34:56] relapse for me. Um, but another way that

[34:59] we sort of test relapse is

[35:02] no abandonment of self. That's our

[35:04] that's this friend and I that's our

[35:06] motto, like no abandonment of self. So,

[35:08] at the end of the day, like was there

[35:09] anywhere in this day where I said yes

[35:13] when I meant no? Like when my body said

[35:15] no but my mouth said yes. Where I people

[35:18] pleased my way through some sort of

[35:20] situation in order to gain love,

[35:22] approval, validation, and acceptance.

[35:24] Where I infantilized myself

[35:26] >> because I was in a really difficult

[35:27] situation and I didn't want to face it

[35:29] and I as I try to make someone else do

[35:30] it. It's like no, you be the grown-up

[35:33] and you do this thing because I can't. I

[35:34] don't want to. So those are sort of

[35:36] these markers, but

[35:39] handing over of the power of your own

[35:41] life force to pour into somebody else is

[35:44] what I used to call love and what I

[35:46] thought was love. And now when I when I

[35:48] see it, there's a there's a sign Rya was

[35:51] a songwriter and a musician. We used to

[35:52] write music together. And there was a

[35:53] song I wrote for her that at the time

[35:56] that I wrote it, I'm like, "This song's

[35:57] so beautiful and it's so romantic and it

[36:00] encapsulates completely this story." and

[36:03] she she wrote the music for it and she

[36:04] sang it and performed it. I was like

[36:06] this is so great and one of the lines in

[36:08] it in my voice at her was I'm just

[36:11] trying to give you a home. My body and

[36:14] life are your own, right? It's like this

[36:16] complete and in our culture we actually

[36:18] kind of like reward that as what a

[36:20] beautiful romantic story. But when I

[36:22] hear those lyrics now, I'm like, yikes.

[36:26] Like, my body is yours. Like, my life is

[36:31] yours. My money is yours. My energy is

[36:34] yours. I'm your home. Where's mine? If

[36:37] I'm making my whole existence into your

[36:40] home, there's no one home here, you

[36:43] know? And I see that now. And I'm like,

[36:45] my little cousin when she was little

[36:47] used to have a little seal and we used

[36:48] to play this game where the seal was

[36:50] trapped and we would just say, "Help,

[36:51] help. I'm trapped in kelp." And I look

[36:53] at that like I look at that now and I'm

[36:55] like, "Help, help. I'm trapped in kelp."

[36:57] Like, "What am I doing?" And I'm calling

[36:59] that love and I'm calling that

[37:00] friendship and I'm calling that nobility

[37:03] and sacrifice. But what it also actually

[37:05] is is complete and total abandonment of

[37:07] self.

[37:08] How much self-awareness did you have

[37:11] prior to going into the program around

[37:14] this? Like presumably, I mean, you're

[37:16] the you pray love person, right? Like

[37:17] you're you're in touch with your your

[37:19] past and your trauma. You know, there's

[37:22] therapy. There's all these other things

[37:23] that that you're doing that I would

[37:25] imagine gave you a glimpse of some of

[37:28] these patterns and habits prior to, you

[37:31] know, kind of all the chaos that ensued

[37:34] later.

[37:35] >> And why was that not enough?

[37:38] addict to addict. You know

[37:41] >> I'm setting you up for your

[37:42] >> you have a disease. You know addicts

[37:44] have a disease that lies to them and

[37:46] says you don't have a disease. Right? So

[37:48] the first person we fool is ourselves.

[37:50] Right? So there's like a section of you

[37:51] pray love that I quote in this new book

[37:53] where I describe my addictive tendencies

[37:56] and that was 20 years ago. Like I could

[37:58] have written a doctoral thesis by the

[38:00] time I was 30 called why I act like

[38:02] this. Like I totally know the

[38:03] psychological reasons why I act like

[38:05] this. It didn't stop me from acting like

[38:07] that, right? Like what they say in the

[38:08] room, discovery is not recovery. Like

[38:10] knowing why

[38:11] >> selfawareness will avail you nothing

[38:13] >> of nothing, right? Like I I was an

[38:15] expert on my dysfunction. And every

[38:18] single time I was like, "This isn't that

[38:21] though." Even though it matches up

[38:24] completely with the fingerprint of what

[38:26] I always do, I'm not doing it. In the

[38:29] same way that Rehea was like, "The

[38:31] drinking that I'm doing isn't a problem.

[38:34] It's not a substance. Drinking and drugs

[38:36] are not the same thing. I'm an addict,

[38:38] but I can drink. It's not okay. And I

[38:40] was like, "All right." And she was like,

[38:41] "All right."

[38:42] >> She's so honest about everything else.

[38:44] >> So honest. She's so candid. She's she's

[38:46] not hiding it. She's telling everyone

[38:47] she's doing it, right? So I have

[38:50] infinite capacity to be a PR agent for

[38:54] my own [ __ ]

[38:56] >> you know, and I have to I mean, addicts,

[38:58] one of the things I write in the book is

[39:00] that addicts have to lie. Addicts have

[39:03] to live double lives because they can't

[39:05] until you find recovery. You can't live

[39:07] without the thing that you're using. And

[39:09] so you've got to create these incredibly

[39:11] elaborate

[39:13] sort of narratives to to pretend that

[39:15] you're not doing what is it is so

[39:17] obvious that you're doing. I mean Reyes

[39:18] said to me during her spiral when I

[39:20] confronted her, "Since when is cocaine

[39:22] addictive?" She looked me in the eye.

[39:25] She looked me in the eye with these like

[39:28] >> pupils like this and she's like, "Since

[39:29] when is cocaine even?" She's like

[39:31] twitching. Yeah.

[39:32] >> And and I'm like, "What did you just

[39:33] say?" And she said, "It never used to be

[39:35] back in my day,

[39:36] >> you know." And I'm like, "You're

[39:38] amazing. Addicts are amazing. We will

[39:40] say anything." And I believe that if

[39:42] you'd hooked her up to a lie detector

[39:44] test at that point, she would have

[39:45] believed what she was.

[39:45] >> Right. Of course. Um,

[39:47] >> since that's amazing.

[39:49] >> Is one of my favorite lines I've ever

[39:50] heard in my entire life. God bless her

[39:52] and me. So, I was doing precisely what I

[39:55] have done a million times. I was leaving

[39:58] someone to go be with someone else,

[40:00] which is my pattern, while at the same

[40:02] time saying, "It's not like that this

[40:04] time, even though it 100% is."

[40:08] >> Had you ever not been in a relationship?

[40:12] >> Did you just go, you were just

[40:13] overlapping them all along from

[40:16] >> one after another? I mean, I started

[40:18] when I was 15. I would have started a

[40:19] lot earlier if I was prettier. Like I

[40:21] was trying to do it earlier, but you

[40:24] know, it wasn't until I got over my like

[40:26] ugly duckling thing that I could make it

[40:27] work. But you

[40:28] >> just can't not be in a relationship.

[40:30] >> Can't. And there was a part of me that

[40:32] always knew

[40:34] that that I was missing. I was robbing

[40:37] myself of something. I knew I knew that

[40:40] it's important to learn how to be with

[40:41] yourself and to learn how to be alone.

[40:43] So the only time I didn't do it, there

[40:45] was like a 9 10 month period during the

[40:47] E Pray Love journey when I didn't do it.

[40:48] But then I met somebody who was so

[40:50] loving. Yeah,

[40:51] >> you know, was so attentive and so loving

[40:54] and and so dialed in to me and and I was

[40:57] like, I can't deny myself this

[41:00] >> like this person's so good to me and so

[41:02] kind to me.

[41:03] >> This is why it's such an innately human

[41:06] story. Like you go on this journey with

[41:08] Eat, Pray, Love, and you meet your maker

[41:12] and probe the depths of your soul trying

[41:14] to find these answers. You return, you

[41:17] meet this man, you get married, you and

[41:19] you write this book, and it's this smash

[41:22] sensation success. Uh, and and then you

[41:25] kind of slowly, you know, slink back

[41:27] into self-will and old habits,

[41:30] you know, and then you're just kind of

[41:33] doing your thing and you're like, it's

[41:34] fine, right?

[41:36] >> Yeah.

[41:36] >> And you need this, you know, comet to

[41:39] collide with your planet in order to

[41:41] wake up and realize like, oh, the work

[41:43] wasn't done when I left Bali. like

[41:46] there's still more that I have to do

[41:48] that I have to look at.

[41:50] >> What is it about needing these

[41:52] incredibly painful moments in order to

[41:54] get us to awaken to ourselves and and

[41:56] make those changes that are obvious to

[41:58] everyone else except ourselves?

[42:00] >> It's such an intractable human problem.

[42:02] >> Oh, it's adorable.

[42:04] We're so cute. We're so cute and

[42:06] hopeless and adorable and and loved. And

[42:09] when I bring that up with my what I call

[42:12] God, you know, and I want to be really

[42:14] careful when I use the word God that

[42:16] there's a Rod Bell line that I love

[42:17] where I was always like, "Whatever God,

[42:19] you don't believe in, I also don't

[42:20] believe in that God, so we're good." You

[42:21] know, any God trauma that anybody has,

[42:24] but it's a word I use for the mystery

[42:26] that doesn't have any other word that I

[42:28] do feel loves me and wants me to be

[42:32] okay. And and the way that it speaks to

[42:35] me is like, "Oh, honey, we tried as

[42:37] gently as we could

[42:38] >> to get your attention about this." Like

[42:40] we tried,

[42:41] >> right? There were a lot of there were a

[42:43] lot of knocks before it got

[42:45] >> done this without sending the comment.

[42:47] >> But why can't we just heed that gentle

[42:49] knock?

[42:49] >> Because you can't see what you can't

[42:50] see. And I think when you're somebody

[42:51] who's accustomed to being very powerful,

[42:55] which is something like there's another

[42:57] element of me where I'm like I'm the

[42:59] manifesttor. like I can create things

[43:02] like I can make like I can do stuff in

[43:06] the world. I'm a person who can do stuff

[43:07] very successfully. I'm accustomed to

[43:09] being successful. Rehea was accustomed

[43:12] to being powerful. She was accustomed to

[43:15] walking into the room and being the

[43:16] effortless alpha in every room that she

[43:18] walked into. Why the hell could she not

[43:19] manage a little bit of cocaine? Like why

[43:22] the hell could she not manage a little

[43:23] bit of alcohol? It's like this is her

[43:24] Achilles heel, right? Like I'm

[43:26] accustomed to manifesting beautiful

[43:29] things.

[43:30] So why can't I have a normal

[43:33] relationship like a normal person? And

[43:36] the thing that I find so touching and

[43:38] that I come back to again and again

[43:40] about addiction that I find so sweet

[43:42] about us. I say us as addicts of all

[43:44] sorts is like cuz you can't like there

[43:49] are certain things that I can't do that

[43:51] other people can do. And I just know

[43:53] that now and I hope I don't forget that.

[43:56] But like other people can do things that

[43:58] I can't do. I have a friend who's a

[44:00] ferocious alcoholic and we were at a

[44:02] wedding together and somebody handed her

[44:04] a glass of a flute of champagne to make

[44:06] the wedding toast and she just went

[44:07] like, you know, it says in the big book

[44:08] of a we recoil as if from a hot flame,

[44:11] right? And you know, she's like 9 years

[44:13] sober and she just was like, you know,

[44:16] she just like backed up from this thing

[44:17] and the person was like it's just for

[44:19] the photo

[44:20] >> like you can surely hold a flute of

[44:23] champagne safely in your hand. You're

[44:24] not going to drink it. And she just she

[44:26] just said I cannot do things that other

[44:28] normal people can do. Like this is what

[44:30] I have to know about myself in this

[44:32] regard. I am not normal. And I think

[44:35] what I was doing for my entire

[44:37] relationship history was trying to like

[44:39] I wrote a whole book about marriage

[44:41] trying to figure out how do I contain

[44:44] this thing? How do I do this

[44:45] successfully? How do I be normal? And

[44:48] I'm not. And that's lovely. I'm just

[44:51] not. This is how it is. And that

[44:54] abnormality that brought so much pain

[44:56] and suffering and shame and degradation

[44:59] is also my path to God,

[45:01] >> right?

[45:02] >> Because it's where my power ends. And if

[45:05] I were as good at relationships as I am

[45:07] at everything else, I wouldn't need a

[45:09] God. I'd just be out here giving

[45:11] seminars.

[45:13] >> I mean, it would find you it would find

[45:15] you in some other way,

[45:16] >> you know, and then, you know, I'm so

[45:18] good at life, you know.

[45:19] >> Here's what's great. Here's what's

[45:21] great. you're cruising around, you know,

[45:24] America doing these workshops with Rob

[45:26] Bell on creativity. You know, I I adore

[45:29] Rob. Like, what a what a wonderful human

[45:31] being. And the two of you together, it's

[45:33] like a supernova. It's like an amazing

[45:35] energy. These two human beings who have

[45:39] this spiritual connection and know

[45:41] beyond a shadow of a doubt that

[45:43] creativity is something divine. It's

[45:46] something that we can court and make

[45:48] ourselves available to flow through us.

[45:50] But it is not something that is

[45:52] generated inside of us. And it descends

[45:55] upon us when we open the portal are in a

[45:59] place of ease and and allowing like m

[46:02] you know all of that like you're the

[46:04] best at this. There is no question that

[46:08] you are tapped into something very real

[46:12] and deeply spiritual and yet you're

[46:15] walking around with this god-sized hole

[46:18] in your soul.

[46:20] determined to fill it with

[46:22] externalities.

[46:24] What applies to creativity doesn't apply

[46:26] to relationships. You have

[46:28] compartmentalized your spirituality. And

[46:31] you know, God came down and gave you a

[46:33] reckoning and said your surrender,

[46:36] you're like surrender is halfbaked,

[46:37] right? Like you have it for this. You're

[46:40] very clear about that. You helped all

[46:41] these people and you've been able to,

[46:43] you know, build this beautiful creative

[46:46] inspirational life in this one area. And

[46:50] yet you can't seem to understand that

[46:52] you need to apply it not just to this

[46:54] other area that's going sideways but to

[46:57] everything. And I'm curious like where's

[47:00] Rob Bell in this? Is he going hey Liz?

[47:04] Is he seeing this? Is he not seeing

[47:06] this? Like where's the blind spot?

[47:08] >> Oh for me like calling me out or being

[47:10] like as you're

[47:11] >> not not for him necessarily but it's

[47:13] like the the blind spot is what's

[47:14] interesting because we all have them.

[47:16] Like I'm not like judging you. I have a

[47:18] million of them. You know what I mean?

[47:19] It's like we think we've got it figured

[47:20] out.

[47:21] >> I feel like you just I don't feel

[47:23] judged. I feel the the delicious

[47:25] >> velvety softness I always feel in the

[47:27] truth.

[47:28] >> You know what I mean? Like that's just

[47:30] what you just said is true.

[47:31] >> Like I'm like, "Yep, that you just

[47:33] >> what that guy said." And

[47:34] >> so yeah, Earth school says, "We've got

[47:37] another class for you."

[47:39] >> Right. Right. We hate to do this, honey.

[47:41] And we'll do it as gently as we can, but

[47:44] here we go.

[47:44] >> Mhm. I don't think the definition of a

[47:48] blind spot is that you can't see it, you

[47:51] know? I mean, that's where that's where

[47:52] the beautiful human quality of mercy has

[47:54] to come in of

[47:57] and not instead of like how could you

[47:59] not see this?

[48:01] >> It's like of course you can't see this.

[48:03] >> Like of course, of course you can't like

[48:05] I feel the only compassionate way to

[48:08] look at an addict is not like why do you

[48:10] keep doing this? But like why in the

[48:11] world wouldn't you? You know, like why

[48:14] in the world wouldn't you? And nothing

[48:15] can save me but a miracle. Like

[48:18] psychology can't save me. Like my own

[48:21] massive creativity. I mean, how many

[48:23] times did I say precisely what you just

[48:25] said, Rich? Like I wish I could be in

[48:29] relationship with people the way I am in

[48:31] relationship with creativity. It's so

[48:33] clear to me how this works in

[48:35] creativity. It's so effortless. It's so

[48:38] beautiful. It's so warm. It's so soft.

[48:40] It's so free. There's no stakes. I've

[48:42] got no attachment to the outcome. I can

[48:45] this just happened a couple years ago. I

[48:46] can write like spend four years write a

[48:48] book.

[48:48] >> Yeah. You wrote this novel and then

[48:50] >> and then just be like, "Oh, okay." And

[48:51] just not publish it and not lose a

[48:52] minute of sleep over it, right?

[48:54] >> That was insane. I remember talking to

[48:55] Adam about that. I was like, "Is she

[48:57] mad?" Like, what was the interior

[48:59] experience of that? But I know you were

[49:01] like, "It's cool. Moving on." Because

[49:04] you were doing it for the love of doing

[49:05] it in the process.

[49:06] >> But I can't that level of detachment,

[49:08] that level of non-attachment to outcome.

[49:11] I have never been able to do that with a

[49:13] person, you know. It's just like once I

[49:16] feel that they have something that I

[49:18] need, like all addicts, you you can't

[49:21] take it away from me until it's got claw

[49:22] marks in it.

[49:24] >> So, that's my thing. That's what I

[49:26] That's what I came here in this lifetime

[49:29] to address and and that's what I'm doing

[49:34] to the best of my capacity with the help

[49:36] of a very amused God, you know, who's

[49:40] like, "All right, honey. How many more

[49:41] times you want to do this? Like, you

[49:43] done yet? If you're done yet, come with

[49:46] me. If you're not done, go try it

[49:47] again."

[49:48] >> Mhm.

[49:49] >> Like, go try it again.

[49:52] There's this persistent myth that

[49:54] creatine is just for bodybuilders and

[49:56] and gym bros. And I kind of get it. The

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[51:07] When you when you came into the program,

[51:09] were you

[51:11] openhearted about it and willing to do

[51:14] the work or were you fighting it and and

[51:17] trying to convince yourself that you

[51:19] didn't fit?

[51:19] >> Which time? When I came into the

[51:21] >> I don't know.

[51:23] >> When I came into the program the first

[51:24] time, I came as a spectator

[51:27] and so a friend 12step me and was like,

[51:29] "You got to go check this out." And I

[51:31] went and I checked it out and I was

[51:32] like, "These people are super sick." You

[51:36] know, like these people are really not

[51:37] well. I'm not nearly as [ __ ] up as

[51:40] these people. The literature is good. I

[51:42] get it. I'm very smart. I'm a lot

[51:44] smarter than other people. So,

[51:47] >> just going to read the book in an

[51:49] afternoon and download it and be like,

[51:51] "Okay, cool, cool, cool, cool. I see

[51:52] that.

[51:53] >> Definitely not going to get a sponsor.

[51:55] Definitely not going to ever make a

[51:57] program call with another fellow cuz

[51:58] these sick people, I don't really want

[52:00] to deal with these tragic."

[52:03] Like, this is how I was seeing it. And I

[52:05] was there for a couple months and then I

[52:07] was like, I think I've, you know, I'm an

[52:09] accelerated student so I think I got it.

[52:11] I'm cool. Thanks a lot. Thanks for the

[52:12] lessons. Um, I don't need this. And I

[52:15] went out and picked up again. Like

[52:18] instantly picked up another person and

[52:20] instantly did the thing I do. So after

[52:23] that kicked my ass, and this was after

[52:25] Rya died, like one comment wasn't

[52:27] enough. It's never enough, you know?

[52:29] Like I'm a lowbottom sex and love

[52:31] addict.

[52:32] um I have to have many more serious

[52:34] consequences than a normal person to

[52:36] finally give up. But then I came the

[52:39] second time I was like, "Okay,

[52:42] got it. Let's do this now. Who will be

[52:46] my sponsor? Let me take 10 phone

[52:48] numbers. Let's do the steps. Let me put

[52:49] this thing down." And

[52:52] there I was still negotiating.

[52:55] There was a beautiful moment at the

[52:57] beginning of my recovery where I said to

[52:59] my higher power who I feel like I can

[53:00] hear and who hears me. I said if I do

[53:04] this if I do this right and and I'm good

[53:08] and I do the steps and I get a sponsey

[53:11] and I like am the perfect a student will

[53:15] you send me another great love story and

[53:17] instantly I heard I will promise you no

[53:20] such thing.

[53:21] >> Yeah.

[53:22] >> You know I

[53:23] >> that's not it's not a conditional thing.

[53:25] It's not a quid proquo. Like the gift of

[53:27] sobriety is sobbriety,

[53:29] >> but I want the cash and prizes that come

[53:31] after. And the and the invitation that I

[53:33] felt at that moment was, are you willing

[53:34] to are you willing to fully put this

[53:37] thing down? Are you not willing to just

[53:39] do like 90 days of no contact with your

[53:41] qualifiers or a year of celibacy and

[53:45] working on yourself? Are you willing?

[53:46] This is my deepest dream. This is always

[53:48] my best idea for how to be well. And God

[53:51] was like, "Will you," what I heard was

[53:53] like, "Will you put it on the divine

[53:54] fire and not take it back out?" Like,

[53:56] just here, you can have this. You can

[53:59] have this dream. You can have this

[54:01] fantasy that the entire culture has

[54:03] celebrated. I mean, I eat Eat, Pray,

[54:06] Love ends with me as Julie Roberts

[54:10] literally sailing into a sunset with

[54:12] Javier Bad. Like that's the sto like

[54:15] it's literally and

[54:17] >> like that's the story I had built and

[54:20] created and God was like can I have that

[54:23] can I have that dream like can I have

[54:25] that dream can I have all and and and

[54:27] what I often hear God saying about

[54:29] surrender is like can you come to me

[54:30] with your hands empty can you come to me

[54:33] with nothing a little bit hidden behind

[54:36] your back as an ulterior motive of if

[54:38] then if I do this then maybe I can you

[54:41] know and and I did I was like like I

[54:45] pushed all the chips in. I'm like you

[54:46] can I'm putting this down. Like I'm

[54:49] putting this down with no promise that

[54:51] I'll ever get anything in return except

[54:55] a life that is for the first time in my

[54:57] life manageable,

[54:59] right? Which is the gift of sobriety.

[55:01] Like I can actually handle my life

[55:04] >> today. Today I'm okay. So that's the

[55:07] only deal

[55:08] >> that requires a tremendous reservoir of

[55:12] willingness.

[55:13] And

[55:15] willingness is something I've been

[55:16] thinking a lot about lately. And I want

[55:18] to run this idea by you that I've been

[55:22] thinking a lot about and working on.

[55:24] Your ideas around ideas in big magic.

[55:29] That's something I think about a lot.

[55:31] Like the notion that ideas are out there

[55:34] in the ether and you know when one

[55:37] occurs to you and you or you grab it or

[55:39] it descends down upon you, it is your

[55:41] responsibility or obligation to bring

[55:42] expression to it or it will evaporate,

[55:45] return to the ether and make itself

[55:47] available for somebody who is willing to

[55:49] do that. uh in the way that ideas work.

[55:54] I think there's something to be said

[55:57] that's analogous around the way that

[55:59] willingness works

[56:01] >> because I don't think that willingness

[56:04] is something that can necessarily be

[56:06] self-generated.

[56:07] You can't you can like be willing to be

[56:10] willing, but that's sort of like wanting

[56:12] to want something that you don't

[56:14] actually want. You can aspire to

[56:16] willingness, but that doesn't

[56:17] necessarily make it so.

[56:19] >> I think willingness is something

[56:22] >> that arrives from somewhere else.

[56:24] >> Much like an idea,

[56:26] >> it strikes you and then you have

[56:29] >> a brief moment of time where it's your

[56:31] responsibility to

[56:34] exercise that willingness through some

[56:36] kind of action, some kind of contrary

[56:38] action.

[56:39] >> But if you don't do that, it will pass

[56:41] and evaporate.

[56:43] Willingness is like this very fickle

[56:46] thing

[56:47] >> that I can't quite put my finger on,

[56:50] >> but it's so powerful when it does arrive

[56:54] if you have the awareness and the

[56:55] presence of mind to recognize it and and

[56:58] take that contrary action. Because in

[57:01] that moment where you did have the the

[57:03] willingness, this extreme capacity to

[57:06] turn everything over, it's a very

[57:08] dramatic act. There were many days and

[57:11] probably darker days, more desperate

[57:13] times when you didn't have that and

[57:16] couldn't make that choice.

[57:18] >> I always say I wish I'd found recovery

[57:21] programs in this problem earlier, but I

[57:24] also need to call myself out on how very

[57:27] unlikely it would have been that I would

[57:28] have availed myself of them because I

[57:30] think I still felt like I can I can

[57:34] solve this, right? I can solve this with

[57:37] my intellect. Mhm.

[57:39] >> If I learn more, like I'm a great

[57:41] student. So, it's like I'll learn I'll

[57:44] learn more. Like I felt like I divorce

[57:46] proofed my second marriage by writing

[57:49] this book called Committed where I spent

[57:52] three years researching the history of

[57:54] marriage, the all the sociological data

[57:58] around marriage, interviewing everybody

[57:59] that I met about marriage and then

[58:00] coalating it into this book where I was

[58:02] like now I'm divorce proof because I

[58:04] have every single piece of information

[58:05] that there is about marriage because I

[58:07] never want to go through a divorce

[58:08] again. So I'm like I'm going to just

[58:11] apply this. I'm just going to learn my

[58:12] way into safety, which is not the same

[58:15] thing as being willing to not know. You

[58:18] know, one of the things when I was going

[58:20] through withdrawal and withdrawal from

[58:22] the dream,

[58:24] right? Withdrawal from the dream, the

[58:27] fantasy that someday I'm going to get

[58:29] this thing right.

[58:31] >> Like the humility of being like, I might

[58:33] never get this thing. Like I I might not

[58:35] be here to get this thing right. This

[58:37] thing maybe can't be made right. All of

[58:39] that and the deep loneliness, the deep

[58:42] loneliness, like the searing physical

[58:45] pain of waking up in my bed in trauma,

[58:51] literally shaking and crying

[58:54] like a baby and this voice being like

[58:58] hysterical inside me being like, "This

[59:00] is not okay.

[59:03] Like, this is way too much. We need

[59:05] someone here. We can't like go get

[59:07] someone like go get someone. You know

[59:09] how to go get someone. Go get someone.

[59:10] It doesn't matter who. Like doesn't

[59:13] matter who. Just a body needs to be here

[59:14] in this bed. This is not okay. And

[59:17] sitting with myself through night after

[59:19] night of that. And calling and just

[59:21] being very unhappy and miserable and

[59:24] uncomfortable like all withdrawal and

[59:27] calling my sponsor and saying when will

[59:30] this end and what will be my reward?

[59:35] you know, like what will be my reward

[59:36] for all this discomfort and when will

[59:38] this end? And

[59:40] >> and she said, "It'll end when it ends,

[59:41] and when it ends, it won't be you who

[59:42] ended it."

[59:44] >> Um, spoken like a true, right? It'll end

[59:47] when it ends, and when it ends, it won't

[59:48] be you who ended it. And

[59:51] can you live without knowing

[59:53] >> what the reward is? Can you do, she

[59:55] said, can you do what your sober

[59:56] predecessors before you did and walk

[1:00:00] through this withdrawal without knowing

[1:00:01] what you're going to get? You who love

[1:00:04] to know. I mean, knowing is how I stay

[1:00:06] safe.

[1:00:07] >> And I found there to be something like

[1:00:10] when I when she introduced the concept

[1:00:12] of a lineage, like others before you

[1:00:15] have done this. Like others before you I

[1:00:18] don't know why that makes me just want

[1:00:20] to cry right now, but like others before

[1:00:22] you have been in this much pain. Like

[1:00:24] this pain is not original to you. And

[1:00:26] the people who were in this much pain

[1:00:28] before you found a series of actions

[1:00:31] that they could take that kept them out

[1:00:34] of extreme degradation and suffering.

[1:00:37] And

[1:00:39] can you just walk where they walked

[1:00:41] without knowing why you're even doing

[1:00:43] it? And I and I think I don't know

[1:00:46] whether my willingness to do that was a

[1:00:49] decision of my own will or if it was a

[1:00:52] gift

[1:00:54] um from the mystery to be like this kid

[1:00:58] has suffered enough like let's just put

[1:01:01] her on this path.

[1:01:02] >> Yeah.

[1:01:02] >> Like let's just make her willing to be

[1:01:04] on this path. Like maybe she's had

[1:01:06] enough of this particular kind of pain.

[1:01:10] When did the idea of of doing this

[1:01:12] extended celibacy come in?

[1:01:15] >> I didn't make a decision to be

[1:01:17] extendedly celibate. I made a decision

[1:01:21] to leave that up to God. So I don't I'm

[1:01:24] not in a celibacy experiment.

[1:01:28] God is in charge of what I do in this

[1:01:31] realm. I don't make any decisions around

[1:01:33] this realm. So for me to say I'm going

[1:01:35] to be celibate is just as ridiculous as

[1:01:38] me saying I'm going to stay faithful in

[1:01:40] this marriage or I'm like not going to

[1:01:42] be attracted to this person like I'm

[1:01:44] powerless over this.

[1:01:46] >> So what the relationship that I'm in is

[1:01:50] what's your will for me God? What is

[1:01:52] your will for me that would be of the

[1:01:55] highest use of me and service of me to

[1:02:00] this gift of life that you've given to

[1:02:01] me and to others where I would cause the

[1:02:03] least harm and be able to do the most

[1:02:05] service. And so far, you know, as of

[1:02:08] like 20 to four

[1:02:11] >> on this day, six years into my recovery

[1:02:14] program, God's been like, I want you

[1:02:16] doing just what you're doing,

[1:02:18] >> and I will notify you if that needs to

[1:02:20] change. And if that needs to change,

[1:02:22] it's not going to be your idea. It'll be

[1:02:24] my idea. But

[1:02:27] you know, actually the shorter answer is

[1:02:28] when I say to my higher power, should I

[1:02:30] be dating? God's like, lol, no.

[1:02:34] Like, uh-uh. And other people in my

[1:02:36] program do date, you know, and they date

[1:02:38] with sober dating plan. I mean, I have a

[1:02:40] sober dating plan. I've got a document

[1:02:41] in place for if that day should come.

[1:02:43] And I hope that I have the sobriety to

[1:02:46] use it if that day should come. But for

[1:02:48] now, the answer is

[1:02:50] We have so much healing to do of the

[1:02:53] It's not just that I have so much

[1:02:54] healing to do of the damage

[1:02:57] to me from 35 years of abandonment of

[1:03:00] self, degradation of body,

[1:03:04] disregard for my own well-being. Like

[1:03:07] there is so much healing to that's a

[1:03:09] long time. I was

[1:03:10] >> deep in the paint in this thing for a

[1:03:13] long time, right? So there's a lot of

[1:03:15] amends that I'm making to myself about

[1:03:18] things I'm sorry that I made myself do

[1:03:21] in order to get love, approval,

[1:03:22] validation, and acceptance. And so the

[1:03:24] amends process for me is like

[1:03:27] we're not going to do that now. Like I'm

[1:03:29] not going to I'm not going to make you

[1:03:30] go do that. Like I will take care of you

[1:03:32] so that you don't have to degrade

[1:03:35] yourself so much so that somebody else

[1:03:36] will. But there's a lot of healing I

[1:03:38] have to do with people who I harmed. And

[1:03:41] and that's been a really long process

[1:03:44] >> because the amends process is difficult

[1:03:47] when these kind of actions hurt people

[1:03:49] at such a profound level. And so there's

[1:03:51] a there's a lot of delicacy in terms of

[1:03:54] like is it even safe for them if I

[1:03:56] approach? Is this a person who ever

[1:03:58] wants to hear my name again? Like I did

[1:04:00] the worst thing to this person like do

[1:04:03] they even want to you know so there's a

[1:04:06] lot of like there's a lot of healing. I

[1:04:08] think of it as like healing a wetlands,

[1:04:09] you know? It's like

[1:04:12] these heavy metals that are in there

[1:04:13] take a long time to to get out and I

[1:04:15] don't want to rush. I don't have a

[1:04:16] deadline on that process. Like that's an

[1:04:19] open-ended process.

[1:04:21] So that's

[1:04:22] >> the amends, you know, it's a case by

[1:04:24] case thing, right? Like when is it a

[1:04:25] living amends? When is it appropriate uh

[1:04:28] and in the best interest of everybody to

[1:04:31] directly approach somebody? Like it's

[1:04:33] it's hard to know. And when those when

[1:04:36] those harms are are severe and cut deep,

[1:04:39] >> you know, sometimes it's it's better to

[1:04:40] leave them be and to just, you know,

[1:04:43] kind of uh change your behavior going

[1:04:45] forward or, you know, write a letter to

[1:04:48] them that you don't send or or, you

[1:04:50] know, just treat other people, you know,

[1:04:52] in a manner befitting your recovery.

[1:04:55] Like, it's it's it's a hard thing.

[1:04:57] >> It's really hard.

[1:04:57] >> But when it's unresolved, it also makes

[1:05:00] it more difficult to move forward and

[1:05:02] release the baggage. And so you're still

[1:05:05] >> somewhat connected to those feelings of

[1:05:08] of guilt and shame that surround it. But

[1:05:10] when you take dating off the table

[1:05:13] and you can no longer, you know, export

[1:05:15] or externalize,

[1:05:17] you know, how you feel about yourself

[1:05:19] upon, you know, the opinions of others,

[1:05:22] you're in this rare place of of solitude

[1:05:26] where you can do that work and you can

[1:05:29] begin to exercise self-care. And that

[1:05:31] gets into this really important piece

[1:05:33] around self-love, which is like

[1:05:35] something I I still like so many years

[1:05:37] later, I struggle with so deeply. It

[1:05:40] feels so cringy, the whole prospect of

[1:05:43] it all

[1:05:44] >> because deep down I still harbor all of

[1:05:46] these like negative emotions about

[1:05:48] myself that creep up and start to infect

[1:05:51] my relationships. And um there's a whole

[1:05:55] terrain that still is out there for me

[1:05:58] to, you know, travel. I try to avoid

[1:06:02] using terms self-love and self-hatred

[1:06:04] because self- loveve can feel really

[1:06:06] cringey and self-hatred is so dark and I

[1:06:09] just think of it in terms of

[1:06:10] friendliness and non-friendliness. Like

[1:06:14] the thing the way I'm speaking to myself

[1:06:17] in this I can like do a little

[1:06:18] assessment and be the way I'm speaking

[1:06:20] to myself right now isn't very friendly.

[1:06:22] It's not even about loving. It's just

[1:06:24] like this is unfriendly. Like I would

[1:06:26] never speak to a friend this way. I

[1:06:29] would never degrade a friend this way.

[1:06:31] Is this is this a friendly moment or an

[1:06:33] unfriendly moment? Do you know the story

[1:06:34] about the Daly Lama and Sharon Salsburg

[1:06:37] the meditation teacher? Have you heard

[1:06:38] the story?

[1:06:38] >> I don't think so.

[1:06:39] >> So when the Daly Lama came to the west

[1:06:43] for the first time through California

[1:06:45] and it was probably in the 70s60s I'm

[1:06:48] trying early 70s I think. I don't have

[1:06:50] the exact date but he nobody really kind

[1:06:52] of knew who he was. He wasn't this huge

[1:06:55] global figure yet. And some

[1:06:57] >> people I'm going to guess around Eselin

[1:07:00] brought him you know like in that sort

[1:07:02] of circle like people who were

[1:07:04] >> philosophers and thinkers and meditators

[1:07:07] and they had a kind of summit and they

[1:07:09] brought him and invited

[1:07:10] >> various therapists and thinking people

[1:07:13] and academics to meet this kind of

[1:07:14] obscure Tibetan monk and Sharon Salsburg

[1:07:17] the the great meditation teacher who

[1:07:18] teaches a lot about meta loving kindness

[1:07:20] meditation was in the room. She was a

[1:07:22] young meditator and she had the

[1:07:24] opportunity to ask him a question and

[1:07:26] his English was very poor at the time

[1:07:28] and she said, "What is the traditional

[1:07:31] prescribed within your lineage? What is

[1:07:35] the traditional prescribed cure or

[1:07:37] treatment for self-hatred?" And he had

[1:07:40] to talk to a translator for 15 minutes

[1:07:42] before he even understood the question.

[1:07:46] He kept thinking he was hearing it wrong

[1:07:47] because he kept saying, "Who's who's the

[1:07:49] person that you're having a conflict

[1:07:50] with?" Like he kept coming back and

[1:07:52] being like, "Who's who's your enemy?

[1:07:54] Who's the one that you're in trouble

[1:07:56] with?" And they kept saying like me. And

[1:07:58] he's like, "But that

[1:08:00] >> you're your own enemy. That doesn't even

[1:08:02] make any sense why you would be your own

[1:08:04] enemy cuz you're the only one like

[1:08:07] you're you. Why would you why would you

[1:08:09] be an enemy to you?"

[1:08:10] >> And he was bewildered by this question.

[1:08:13] And then he was even more bewildered

[1:08:15] when he sort of took a survey around the

[1:08:16] room and was like, "Does everyone have

[1:08:18] this? Like, is this a thing? like is

[1:08:20] this and everyone

[1:08:21] >> every western

[1:08:22] >> every western hand was up and he was as

[1:08:25] a person of compassion he was devastated

[1:08:28] and he said his exact quote was I used

[1:08:31] to think that I understood the mind but

[1:08:34] I find this very very disturbing he came

[1:08:37] away from that and his sort of approach

[1:08:40] toward the west was we're going to have

[1:08:42] to start with this um because this is

[1:08:46] this is not okay and this absence of a

[1:08:49] sense of just inherent your sovereign

[1:08:52] right to feel friendly toward yourself

[1:08:55] has been so violated and decimated in in

[1:08:59] this culture that we think it's natural

[1:09:01] to hate ourselves when it's actually the

[1:09:03] very very furthest thing. So it's

[1:09:08] that's where I sort of start with with

[1:09:10] people, you know, um and where I start

[1:09:13] with with myself like and the way that I

[1:09:15] see it now on a sort of cosmic level is

[1:09:17] I believe that my little soul spirit

[1:09:20] that came here to come to Earth school

[1:09:23] that God or whatever or the great

[1:09:26] mystery gave this one to me. Like I

[1:09:29] don't know totally what's going on here,

[1:09:31] but I know that I'm not you. I mean I

[1:09:32] know we're at one level we're all one.

[1:09:35] But in this duality, like you're having

[1:09:37] a totally different experience over

[1:09:38] there than I am. Like so there's a rich

[1:09:41] guy. There's he's in there and then I'm

[1:09:43] in here and I'm in here talking to you.

[1:09:45] But like this one

[1:09:47] was entrusted to me to to carry through

[1:09:51] this experience of Earth school. And I

[1:09:53] like now the way I think of it is they

[1:09:55] must have thought I could take care of

[1:09:57] it, you know, or they wouldn't have

[1:09:59] entrusted me with something as sacred as

[1:10:03] a soul.

[1:10:04] Right. So now the way I see it is like

[1:10:07] all the rage and resentment and fury

[1:10:10] that I felt at Rya and many other people

[1:10:12] where I'm like you abandoned me like you

[1:10:15] betrayed me. We had a contract you were

[1:10:18] supposed to take care of me you know and

[1:10:20] it's like good guess and a totally

[1:10:23] innocent misunderstanding like this is

[1:10:26] mine to carry through this world right

[1:10:28] and I'm just learning how to do this.

[1:10:30] I'm just learning. So, I'm just learning

[1:10:32] how to look in and be like, are you all

[1:10:35] right in there? How can I serve you?

[1:10:37] What do you need? Like, how can we I can

[1:10:41] see you're suffering. This little one is

[1:10:42] suffering in here.

[1:10:44] >> And one of when I was going through

[1:10:45] withdrawal and having those nights where

[1:10:47] that addict voice that's trying to get

[1:10:49] me what I need is like jonesing and

[1:10:52] being like, "We need to get someone

[1:10:53] here." You know what I was saying out

[1:10:55] loud in my bed. And this is I also

[1:10:58] remember having this feeling like I'm so

[1:11:00] glad I'm alone. I'm so glad I'm living

[1:11:01] alone so that I can do all this stuff

[1:11:04] that would look very weird to someone,

[1:11:06] you know, like flopping about, PTSD,

[1:11:09] shaking, talking to myself, comforting

[1:11:11] myself. I'm like, I'm actually really

[1:11:13] glad that I've got this container of

[1:11:14] this house that I live in where I'm not

[1:11:17] pulling anyone into this drama with me.

[1:11:19] I'm actually in the crucible with myself

[1:11:21] and the only people here are the ones

[1:11:23] who need to be here, which is like me

[1:11:25] and God. And I would just say out loud,

[1:11:28] I would say to her, I know, I totally

[1:11:31] know why you want that. It makes so much

[1:11:34] sense. I know I know your whole story

[1:11:36] and I know why you want me to get

[1:11:39] someone here and I know what you think

[1:11:41] you're going to get out of that and

[1:11:42] you're not wrong. Like that would

[1:11:46] actually be a fix for tonight. Like it

[1:11:49] would work. It always it always works

[1:11:51] like all drugs. It's like it would

[1:11:53] >> you just you play it out to its

[1:11:56] conclusion?

[1:11:56] >> You play the tape out and it's like and

[1:11:58] then I would just say to that part like

[1:11:59] do you remember all the other times we

[1:12:01] did that

[1:12:02] >> and do you remember

[1:12:03] >> how it always ended and it always ended

[1:12:06] worse so we're just going to not do that

[1:12:09] and I was watching this division in me

[1:12:11] like this thing was trying to run away

[1:12:13] from me and it was like I don't trust

[1:12:15] you to take care of me. I want to go

[1:12:16] find someone else. And I'm like I get

[1:12:17] why you don't trust me. You shouldn't.

[1:12:20] All I've ever done is abandon you. But

[1:12:21] like I'm it's like I'm in parenting

[1:12:23] school at the Y learning how to take

[1:12:24] care of you now. And I'm not going to

[1:12:26] always be great at it, but you are my

[1:12:28] priority now. And even if I'm not always

[1:12:30] a great mom, like I'm here

[1:12:33] >> and and I'm not going anywhere. And I'm

[1:12:35] not going to let us bring someone else

[1:12:36] in here because that actually ends up

[1:12:38] harming us. And it's okay if you don't

[1:12:40] like that. And it's okay if you feel

[1:12:42] like that's enough. And we're going to

[1:12:43] and I don't care if we're up all night

[1:12:45] doing this. Like I am not leaving you.

[1:12:47] And I think the the thing that I have

[1:12:50] always most needed to hear is I don't

[1:12:51] care if we're up all night doing this. I

[1:12:53] am not leaving you. You cannot exhaust

[1:12:55] me. You are not too much for me. And I'm

[1:12:57] the only person I now believe I'm the

[1:12:59] only person in the world who I am not

[1:13:00] too much for.

[1:13:03] >> Like because it shouldn't be anybody

[1:13:06] else's job to do that. Like that's too

[1:13:08] big a job. They have to be doing that

[1:13:09] for themselves. They've got their own

[1:13:12] like neglected abandoned kid in there

[1:13:14] who needs them who they would abandon if

[1:13:16] they tried to do that for me, right? So,

[1:13:18] it never should have been anybody else's

[1:13:20] job. But I didn't know that and I

[1:13:23] couldn't know that

[1:13:25] until I knew it. It's not dissimilar

[1:13:28] from the way again like back to

[1:13:31] creativity like the idea that you talk

[1:13:34] about like oh the negative voice the

[1:13:36] self-defeating voice like we're going on

[1:13:37] a road trip you can come but you know

[1:13:40] you got to sit over there and if you

[1:13:42] pipe up you're going in the back seat

[1:13:43] like you're not allowed to like raise

[1:13:45] your voice like I you know I love you

[1:13:46] and you know you can I'm not abandoning

[1:13:48] you like you're part of me but like

[1:13:50] there's rules right?

[1:13:51] >> Yeah. so good at setting boundaries

[1:13:54] around that. But here we are. This is

[1:13:56] the same situation. It's just that you

[1:13:58] have to cleave off a deeper part of

[1:14:02] yourself that you have a harder time

[1:14:06] disassociating with or letting go of,

[1:14:08] right?

[1:14:08] >> The wounded child that needs care that

[1:14:11] you're that you've got bottled up in

[1:14:13] here. Like the negative creative voice,

[1:14:16] that's easy for you, you know? But this

[1:14:18] is the tough one. But on some version,

[1:14:19] it's like Russian nesting dolls. Like

[1:14:21] this is just it's the same thing, right?

[1:14:23] >> Yes. That's so well put, Rich. Exactly.

[1:14:27] Exactly. And Rehea used to say there's

[1:14:30] always a I mean I think it's a common

[1:14:31] recovery phrase, but there's always a

[1:14:33] trap door under every bottom. Like just

[1:14:35] when you think you've hit rock bottom,

[1:14:36] there's a trap door and you can always

[1:14:37] go lower,

[1:14:38] >> but there's also always a ladder of

[1:14:40] ascension.

[1:14:41] >> You know, you can always evolve higher.

[1:14:44] Like you can always your soul can always

[1:14:46] be sort of more polished. And I think a

[1:14:48] lot of sort of the journey of life is

[1:14:50] like you start to get rid of the,

[1:14:54] you know, the external things that

[1:14:55] you've been using to not go to the

[1:14:57] bottom of the bottom of the bottom of

[1:14:59] the thing. And when they're all gone,

[1:15:01] then it's just you

[1:15:03] >> and the the little creature at the

[1:15:05] bottom of the hole, you know? Um, who

[1:15:07] when I met her,

[1:15:09] frankly, looked at me and had no hope. I

[1:15:12] mean, she looked at me, she had the

[1:15:13] thousand mile stare of a 10 tour of duty

[1:15:16] soldier and and I was like, "What do you

[1:15:19] need from me?" And she was like, "You

[1:15:22] will always abandon me.

[1:15:25] You will always abandon me. You'll

[1:15:26] always choose everybody else's comfort

[1:15:28] over my safety. Always. You'll always

[1:15:31] people please your way into destroying.

[1:15:34] You'll always give everything that's

[1:15:35] mine away to everyone. Like, I can't

[1:15:38] count on you for anything." And I was

[1:15:39] like, "You're right.

[1:15:41] You're right.

[1:15:43] Let me see what I can do about this.

[1:15:46] >> Let's start over.

[1:15:48] >> Like all these things though, they they

[1:15:50] track back to

[1:15:52] >> childhood wounds and traumas. Yeah.

[1:15:54] >> I'm sure you have some awareness around,

[1:15:57] you know, how this pattern originated

[1:15:59] and what locked it in. Beyond 12step,

[1:16:02] are there other healing modalities that

[1:16:04] have been helpful like internal family

[1:16:06] systems or I mean there's a you know

[1:16:08] there's a paniply of like stuff out

[1:16:10] there. Yeah, IFS has been great. Um, I

[1:16:14] would say for me the two the two

[1:16:16] modalities that I think have actually

[1:16:19] given me transformation because

[1:16:21] everything helps but I don't think

[1:16:23] helping is quite the same as having a

[1:16:24] transformative awakening experience

[1:16:27] where you feel like you're actually

[1:16:28] being changed.

[1:16:29] >> Say more about that.

[1:16:30] >> So I did talk therapy for probably two

[1:16:33] and a half decades and it was helpful

[1:16:35] like it's helpful. It was it was such a

[1:16:38] band-aid. It was so helpful to go in

[1:16:40] there and talk about my problems and

[1:16:42] have somebody compassionately listen,

[1:16:44] but I didn't stop doing those things,

[1:16:46] right? I didn't. Some people it may

[1:16:49] actually transform. So, for me, it was

[1:16:51] almost like a methodone clinic. It's

[1:16:54] like, I'm going to go get a little bit

[1:16:55] of love and connection with this person

[1:16:57] that's going to be able to keep me alive

[1:16:59] for the next week until I go get

[1:17:00] another. But I don't, you know what I

[1:17:02] mean?

[1:17:02] >> Using the therapist to like meet your

[1:17:05] addictive needs. Yeah. The

[1:17:06] >> validation. it'll be a kind of temporary

[1:17:08] mommy for me,

[1:17:09] >> you know, and comfort and understanding

[1:17:11] and then these little awakenings where

[1:17:12] it's like, oh, an epiphany, I understand

[1:17:14] more, but I would go out and do the same

[1:17:16] thing again, you know. So, the two

[1:17:18] things that I feel like are the only two

[1:17:20] things that for me have actually made me

[1:17:24] not do those two things again, those

[1:17:26] things again. One is is 12step and the

[1:17:28] other is Byron Katie's work um and self

[1:17:31] inquiry and the four questions like

[1:17:32] that,

[1:17:33] >> right? It's called the work, right?

[1:17:35] >> It's called the work. I I don't know

[1:17:36] that much about her stuff, but

[1:17:38] >> I find it to be really that it creates

[1:17:40] radical transformations of thought

[1:17:42] within my mind. It asks me to have a

[1:17:46] really open mind and to be able to sort

[1:17:48] of jiu-jitsu flip my beliefs where all

[1:17:51] of the sudden I kind of physically can't

[1:17:53] believe that anymore.

[1:17:54] >> It has something to do with basically

[1:17:56] just challenging everything you believe

[1:17:58] is true, right? Like what if it's not

[1:17:59] true? kind of releasing your attachment

[1:18:02] to Yeah.

[1:18:03] >> ideas

[1:18:05] >> and identity. Yeah. Is that right?

[1:18:06] >> So yeah, a good one would be Rehea

[1:18:08] abandoned me.

[1:18:10] >> I'm in that belief and I'm suffering

[1:18:12] enormously because I'm in that belief.

[1:18:15] So anyone would agree with it. Like

[1:18:17] anyone would have looked at her like

[1:18:19] checked out on the couch spending money

[1:18:21] on cocaine with a needle in her arm and

[1:18:23] be like, "Sure looks that way." Like I

[1:18:24] could definitely get a consensus of

[1:18:25] people to back me up on that. But but

[1:18:28] what that work would do would be to ask

[1:18:30] me to dare to have an open enough mind

[1:18:33] to I can always go back to the belief

[1:18:35] later. But would you sit in meditation

[1:18:36] and ask these four questions of this

[1:18:38] belief? And the first one is is it true?

[1:18:41] >> Mhm.

[1:18:41] >> Um that Rehea abandoned me and the

[1:18:44] answer to that can only be yes or no. So

[1:18:46] you have to really think about like is

[1:18:47] it true she abandoned me? The second

[1:18:49] question is if the first answer was yes,

[1:18:52] the next question is can you absolutely

[1:18:53] know that it's true? And that's where

[1:18:55] the ego starts to kind of like

[1:18:57] disintegrate like a slug when you put

[1:18:58] salt on it because it's like well I

[1:19:00] can't absolutely know much. You know

[1:19:02] what I mean? Like it's like it looks

[1:19:03] true, it feels true, but like is

[1:19:05] absolutely absolutely like it starts to

[1:19:07] introduce this possibility of doubt to

[1:19:09] this belief that I'm hanging my whole

[1:19:10] life on. And then the third question is

[1:19:12] how do you respond when you believe that

[1:19:14] it's true? I'm a victim. I'm enraged. I

[1:19:16] have to go find someone else to love to

[1:19:19] make up for what I lost with her. You

[1:19:21] know, I'm sick and suffering in pain.

[1:19:23] And who would I be without that belief

[1:19:25] is the fourth question. And it's like if

[1:19:26] I didn't have the belief that she

[1:19:27] abandoned me, I would be free from that

[1:19:31] rage. And then you do the the really

[1:19:33] cool jiu-jitsu part is you take the

[1:19:34] original belief and then you try to find

[1:19:38] three opposites of it and you try them

[1:19:40] on. She always says try them on like a

[1:19:42] pair of shoes and walk around in it and

[1:19:43] just see how that belief feels. So with

[1:19:45] that belief, Rehea abandoned me. An

[1:19:47] exact opposite would be I abandoned me.

[1:19:51] that actually when I try that on and

[1:19:52] walk around in it, it feels more true.

[1:19:55] >> It's like, "Oh, wait a minute. That

[1:19:56] actually kind of feels like like I did

[1:19:59] that." Like I agreed to go by all those

[1:20:01] drugs. I made you into my higher power.

[1:20:03] I enabled this or Rehea abandoned

[1:20:06] herself.

[1:20:08] Like that also feels very true. She

[1:20:10] abandoned her recovery program. She

[1:20:12] abandoned her highest ideals. She

[1:20:14] abandoned her integrity. It

[1:20:16] depersonalizes it where suddenly it's

[1:20:17] like she didn't do that at me. She was

[1:20:20] just doing it like she was just an

[1:20:21] addict having a relapse. It wasn't it

[1:20:23] wasn't personal to me. Like if I wasn't

[1:20:25] there, she'd be yelling at a tree. You

[1:20:27] know what I mean? Like she was just in

[1:20:28] her own experience. And so you start to

[1:20:30] take these beliefs and like have the

[1:20:34] >> I love an open mind.

[1:20:35] >> So that's why I think I really love that

[1:20:37] like willingness is an open mind. Yeah.

[1:20:39] >> Like when God said to me, are you

[1:20:40] willing to put this thing down and just

[1:20:42] come in with no understanding? Are you

[1:20:44] willing to be in a beginner's mind? Are

[1:20:46] you willing to be in a don't know mind?

[1:20:48] So her work helps me with my like fears

[1:20:51] and resentments throughout the day of

[1:20:54] like I've got you know because all

[1:20:56] addiction comes from fear and resentment

[1:20:59] >> and when those ideas are challenged and

[1:21:01] you feel an emotional charge obviously

[1:21:04] that's when there's something there to

[1:21:07] explore.

[1:21:07] >> Yeah. The resistance is because

[1:21:12] whatever that idea is, no matter how

[1:21:15] much it's leading you in the wrong

[1:21:16] direction, it is doing something for

[1:21:18] you. It's fulfilling some sort of need

[1:21:20] that needs to get

[1:21:21] >> understood and deconstructed and filled

[1:21:23] in a different way.

[1:21:24] >> It's crying out to be liberated, you

[1:21:28] know? That's how I see it. Because like

[1:21:30] a free mind, an open mind, a soft mind

[1:21:33] isn't getting like I'm thinking of like

[1:21:35] a snag in a river, you know, like the

[1:21:38] like a free and open mind is just sort

[1:21:39] of a river flowing and then there's like

[1:21:42] a bend and like a giant log sort of just

[1:21:44] gets snagged and then like all the other

[1:21:47] logs start I mean we've seen it so many

[1:21:48] times in nature. It's just like just

[1:21:50] hooked on that thing. And so those like

[1:21:53] deep endemic beliefs, those self-hating,

[1:21:57] self-abandoning, betraying beliefs are

[1:21:59] like these snags that I just keep

[1:22:00] getting caught on. And once I'm caught

[1:22:02] on them, I have no choice but to act out

[1:22:04] the way I act out. Like if I'm trapped

[1:22:06] in this belief of Rehea abandon me, I

[1:22:08] have to go find someone who's not going

[1:22:09] to abandon me.

[1:22:10] >> Like I have to like if I if I believe

[1:22:13] that, like I have no choice. And of

[1:22:15] course I'm going to go do that. And if I

[1:22:17] retreat to wait, oh, I abandoned me now.

[1:22:20] I like I love the one of the definitions

[1:22:22] I love of sobriety is sobbriety is the

[1:22:23] restoration of choice because addicts

[1:22:26] have no choices. It's like you've got to

[1:22:27] do this thing. You're so compelled.

[1:22:29] >> So it's like well now I actually have a

[1:22:31] little bit of space where I can decide

[1:22:33] how would I like to respond here.

[1:22:36] >> I mean that's a good way of putting

[1:22:38] words to to the fear that a lot of

[1:22:42] people have around 12step recovery which

[1:22:45] is this idea of surrendering to a higher

[1:22:47] power. this notion that you're you're

[1:22:49] giving up that you're relinquishing any

[1:22:52] agency over your life. It's a very, you

[1:22:54] know, confronting, threatening prospect

[1:22:57] that that

[1:23:00] is shortsighted in that it doesn't it

[1:23:02] doesn't fully comprehend the the

[1:23:05] liberation uh that that occurs when you

[1:23:08] kind of let go of all these attachments

[1:23:10] and and and turn it over and really

[1:23:13] develop this spiritual connection. I

[1:23:16] mean truly like that is you know this is

[1:23:18] the you get your diploma in earth school

[1:23:20] when when you realize that there is

[1:23:22] nothing there is nothing more important

[1:23:24] than your divine connection like it's

[1:23:26] really that's it right and we struggle

[1:23:29] so much and try to figure that out in

[1:23:32] all these material ways that lead us

[1:23:34] astray when all we want to do is kind of

[1:23:36] go home right and it's so hard for us

[1:23:39] you know and I fight it too we try to

[1:23:42] make so many other things our home

[1:23:43] >> it's like my surrender's conditional

[1:23:45] like Yes, but like I'm still I still

[1:23:47] need to like you know over here is where

[1:23:49] like I'm in control of this

[1:23:51] >> and the idea of of relinquishing control

[1:23:54] like that that notion that maybe you're

[1:23:57] not in control like

[1:24:00] that's where all the juice is like

[1:24:02] that's when you open the portal to all

[1:24:04] the good stuff and it's so difficult to

[1:24:07] make that leap though

[1:24:09] >> there's a line in the book I actually

[1:24:10] did a little illustration of it that you

[1:24:13] don't want to surrender because you're

[1:24:14] afraid of losing in control, but you

[1:24:16] never had control. All you had was

[1:24:18] anxiety. All you had was anxiety. You

[1:24:22] know, there's the other line that says

[1:24:23] like when you give up control, you're

[1:24:24] giving up something you never had in the

[1:24:25] first place. Like you're just giving up

[1:24:27] this this dream of this thing that you

[1:24:28] never had. When I work with sponses and

[1:24:31] they're having trouble with steps two

[1:24:33] and three, which are the, you know, made

[1:24:35] this decision to turn our will in our

[1:24:36] life over to the care of a higher power

[1:24:38] and came to believe a power greater than

[1:24:39] ourselves. those those ones especially

[1:24:41] people who have a lot of religious

[1:24:42] trauma which I'm extremely sympathetic

[1:24:45] to

[1:24:46] >> where those concepts can feel really

[1:24:47] really super threatening. One of the

[1:24:49] things that I I invite them to do is

[1:24:50] that they get to write

[1:24:52] >> um I asked them to write an essay to

[1:24:54] they get to create it's like a

[1:24:56] Build-A-Bear. You get to create your own

[1:24:58] higher power. So write down what the

[1:25:01] qualities it's almost like the qualities

[1:25:03] you would want in a partner. What are

[1:25:04] the qualities that you would have to

[1:25:06] have in a higher power to surrender to

[1:25:08] them? Like because it's not going to be

[1:25:11] to the God. You can't surrender to the

[1:25:13] God you were taught is judging and

[1:25:16] hating you. Like you already hate

[1:25:18] yourself. Like you already hate yourself

[1:25:20] so much. You already judge yourself so

[1:25:22] much. Like that's not going to feel

[1:25:23] good. So I'm like just you get to create

[1:25:25] your own HP. Let's go. And they're like

[1:25:28] you can't do that, can you? I'm like

[1:25:30] totally you can. And why would a loving

[1:25:33] mysterious god not take whatever form it

[1:25:35] needed to take for you to find it?

[1:25:37] Right. So, it's interesting because

[1:25:39] usually the first thing they have on the

[1:25:40] list is unconditionally loving,

[1:25:43] especially love addicts. You know, it's

[1:25:45] like I need a higher power who thinks

[1:25:47] I'm absolutely perfect as this wreckage

[1:25:49] that I am right now. Like, that's where

[1:25:52] it's got to start. Like, I can't have a

[1:25:54] god coming in here and shaming me.

[1:25:55] >> Yeah.

[1:25:56] >> I can't. The other idea that's helpful

[1:25:59] for people that come in with with that

[1:26:02] kind of baggage and resistance to any

[1:26:04] anything spiritual in any regard because

[1:26:07] of their religious background or

[1:26:08] whatever. Um is to just say kind of what

[1:26:11] you said earlier which is there's wisdom

[1:26:13] in these rooms. Like a lot of people

[1:26:15] have faced and overcome things that

[1:26:18] you're struggling with right now. And

[1:26:22] one of the choices you can make is just

[1:26:23] to make the group consciousness your

[1:26:25] higher power. And that is that is a

[1:26:27] higher power at work, you know,

[1:26:29] certainly being channeled through those

[1:26:30] people and it just grounds it and makes

[1:26:32] it a little bit easier to make that

[1:26:34] leap.

[1:26:35] >> Yeah, I love that. The group that's the

[1:26:37] god equals group of drunks. Isn't that

[1:26:39] what they say?

[1:26:40] >> Um that you make that your god, the

[1:26:42] crew. I also love there's a a couple

[1:26:46] questions I've heard which is like can

[1:26:48] you imagine and it's just a hypothetical

[1:26:51] that there might be an intelligence in

[1:26:52] the universe greater than yours and you

[1:26:54] don't have to know what it is but like

[1:26:57] even looking at like the ocean tides

[1:27:00] >> like I'm not doing that

[1:27:02] like and it's a very intelligent system

[1:27:05] the way it's working there's like a

[1:27:06] beauty and an order that's that might be

[1:27:09] smarter than me like it might be like

[1:27:11] could it be or is my brain

[1:27:13] the highest intelligence in the

[1:27:15] universe, which doesn't even make sense,

[1:27:16] especially looking at how badly I've

[1:27:18] done managing my life, right? Like, you

[1:27:20] can just take that as an example. Like,

[1:27:21] if I'm so smart, why why do I keep

[1:27:25] driving myself over a cliff? Right? So,

[1:27:28] could it be possible that there's an

[1:27:29] intelligence in the universe? And you

[1:27:31] don't even have to name what it is or

[1:27:32] know what it is. Then the second

[1:27:33] question is if the answer to that is yes

[1:27:35] and if it's possible could it be

[1:27:37] possible that it cares about you that

[1:27:40] you're part of it like you were created

[1:27:42] unto this and if it's possible you don't

[1:27:45] have to know but is it possible

[1:27:47] >> and then third question is if it's

[1:27:49] possible that it cares about you can you

[1:27:50] imagine a possibility that it might want

[1:27:52] to be in communion with you which brings

[1:27:55] us back to creativity and this idea of

[1:27:57] like ideas in the ether that want to be

[1:27:59] in communion with you and is it possible

[1:28:02] that It's trying to communicate with you

[1:28:04] and that if you ask it to communicate

[1:28:06] with you, it will. And if you ask it to

[1:28:09] help you, it will.

[1:28:12] Is it possible? Or are we going to stick

[1:28:14] with your brain is the highest

[1:28:16] intelligence in the universe?

[1:28:18] >> And it's got all the answers as

[1:28:20] evidenced by the wreckage of your life.

[1:28:24] >> Pete Holmes has a pretty funny bit about

[1:28:26] this. Have you heard this one where he

[1:28:28] talks about nothing? You know, like you

[1:28:30] ask people what happens when you die and

[1:28:32] nothing. Nothing happens. And and

[1:28:34] reconciling that with the idea that, you

[1:28:36] know, before the Big Bang there was

[1:28:38] nothing, you know. So if it's nothing,

[1:28:40] well then that's God. You're just

[1:28:41] calling it nothing. It's some, you know,

[1:28:43] like I mean obviously he does it in a

[1:28:45] brilliant, you know, way that's

[1:28:47] hilarious or whatever. But

[1:28:49] >> it's like a mental like gymnastics to

[1:28:52] like get around the language. And Rob

[1:28:54] Bell has said beautifully, you don't

[1:28:57] have to call it God, but that doesn't

[1:28:58] solve the problem

[1:29:00] of what the hell is going on.

[1:29:02] >> What Liz, what is going on?

[1:29:04] >> Like what is going on? Earth school. I

[1:29:06] think

[1:29:07] >> I'm taking this off.

[1:29:08] >> I mean, I think that's what's going on.

[1:29:09] I think Earth school is going on. And

[1:29:11] when you look around what we've been

[1:29:13] able to see yet of the universe, it

[1:29:15] doesn't appear there's anything else

[1:29:17] that we found yet that's like this.

[1:29:18] Something very special is going on here.

[1:29:21] This is a very this is a very special

[1:29:23] place this planet and consciousness

[1:29:25] seems to be a very special thing and the

[1:29:28] Buddhists say that the it's a very

[1:29:30] precious thing to have a human life even

[1:29:31] with all of its suffering and it's I

[1:29:33] didn't have not always felt that way

[1:29:36] >> I've often felt like check please

[1:29:38] >> I don't care for it no thank you zero

[1:29:39] out of five stars you know but you know

[1:29:41] the Buddhists say like the your chances

[1:29:44] of being born in human form and having

[1:29:47] the opportunity to have this spiritual

[1:29:50] experience on life. They're so glancing

[1:29:52] slim. They're like, it's the same as the

[1:29:54] chance of a turtle that lives at the

[1:29:56] bottom of the ocean that only comes to

[1:29:58] the top of the ocean once every hundred

[1:29:59] years coming to the top of the ocean for

[1:30:01] a moment and its head coming up in a

[1:30:04] ring that's floating on the ocean. Like

[1:30:06] those are the odds, which actually

[1:30:08] biologically is true when you look at

[1:30:10] sperms and eggs. It's like the odds of

[1:30:12] the that one

[1:30:14] >> like inseminating event are so like what

[1:30:19] are the they're like astronomical, you

[1:30:21] know, and and so

[1:30:23] you're being offered and invited but not

[1:30:27] forced

[1:30:29] to have an interesting experience here

[1:30:31] and show up for it. Like let's show up

[1:30:34] for it and see what happens next.

[1:30:40] One of the things that you talk about is

[1:30:42] is

[1:30:44] this

[1:30:46] idea of like purpose anxiety, right?

[1:30:49] Because when you when you talk about

[1:30:50] that

[1:30:51] >> preciousness,

[1:30:53] >> then that trickles down into, okay, I'm

[1:30:56] here, you know, I have a certain amount

[1:30:57] of time.

[1:30:58] >> Um, what am I going to do with it? Let's

[1:31:00] get to work. And there's there is a

[1:31:04] cultural

[1:31:06] pressure out there that I think really

[1:31:09] makes people feel lousy about themselves

[1:31:12] where they feel like they have to like

[1:31:14] what is my purpose? What is my thing?

[1:31:16] Like I'm falling behind. I don't have

[1:31:18] it. I don't know what it is. So I'm less

[1:31:20] than as a result. Um because the more

[1:31:24] you talk about how precious this life

[1:31:26] is, I think that that can like turn the

[1:31:28] volume up on that feeling of of like,

[1:31:32] well, how do I fit in here? And am I

[1:31:34] anything if I'm not special in this

[1:31:37] particular way?

[1:31:39] >> Yeah. Americans can

[1:31:42] contaminate anything.

[1:31:44] >> Yeah.

[1:31:44] >> It's like we took preciousness and

[1:31:46] turned it into purpose theology. like

[1:31:49] you have to earn that preciousness by

[1:31:52] achieving something you know or or

[1:31:55] leaving an impact or changing the world.

[1:31:57] The problem with that, and again I think

[1:31:59] there's an innocence in that belief, but

[1:32:01] one of the problems with that is like

[1:32:02] when do you know you've done that

[1:32:04] enough, right? Especially in a culture

[1:32:06] where nothing is ever enough. Because

[1:32:08] you and I both know people who are

[1:32:11] appear to be at the very top of that

[1:32:13] purpose game.

[1:32:15] And when you're in their company, you're

[1:32:16] like, "This person's not well." You

[1:32:19] know, like you can feel that they're not

[1:32:20] well. And they're nailing it. like

[1:32:23] they're just extremely anxious in a much

[1:32:25] nicer house than I will ever have. You

[1:32:26] know, it's not work. It's not even

[1:32:28] working. That purpose-driven thing

[1:32:30] doesn't even seem to be working for the

[1:32:32] people that it's working for. And the

[1:32:34] anxiety is not gone, you know, despite

[1:32:37] the tremendous accomplishments. Like

[1:32:39] people with tremendous accomplishments

[1:32:41] kill themselves all the time. So do

[1:32:43] people with no accomplishments. So it's

[1:32:45] not it's not that that kills you. It's

[1:32:47] just that it doesn't seem to answer that

[1:32:49] deeper question. And you know, there's a

[1:32:52] story that I think we've all been told

[1:32:53] in a million commencement addresses

[1:32:55] about this idea that you've got this

[1:32:57] unique spark offering and it's your one

[1:33:00] job to figure out what it is and then

[1:33:01] you've got to monetize it

[1:33:02] >> and then you've got to bring it to other

[1:33:05] people and you've got to have a legacy.

[1:33:07] Like you've got to be remembered after

[1:33:08] you, you know, all of this to me just

[1:33:10] sounds like the fears of the ego. Like

[1:33:12] am I important? Am I special? Did I earn

[1:33:16] my right to be here? Did I waste my

[1:33:18] time? Should I have done more? or did I

[1:33:20] save enough lives? Did I leave a long

[1:33:22] enough legacy? Did I make enough of an

[1:33:24] impact? You know, all of this is like

[1:33:25] ego, ego, ego, ego, ego. Whereas the

[1:33:28] preciousness that I feel like I'm

[1:33:30] speaking about doesn't need any of that.

[1:33:33] It just is. It's intrinsically precious.

[1:33:38] It is sovereign in its preciousness. It

[1:33:40] is precious. Whether you're living under

[1:33:42] a bridge wearing a garbage bag and

[1:33:46] screaming at people when they walk by or

[1:33:49] like running the world, it there's

[1:33:52] something happening that is

[1:33:54] extraordinary, which is that you're

[1:33:56] here. And so the thing that I'm always

[1:34:00] when I teach like I ask people to forget

[1:34:04] about purpose like when I teach

[1:34:06] workshops, I'm like, I hope you didn't

[1:34:07] come here to find your purpose cuz I'm

[1:34:08] not going to help you. I'm not going to

[1:34:10] help you because I actually want to help

[1:34:11] you kind of let that go and see if you

[1:34:14] can replace it with presence

[1:34:16] which I think is just an awareness of

[1:34:20] awareness like I have no idea what's

[1:34:23] going on here but it's objectively very

[1:34:26] interesting you know um and even the

[1:34:29] really horrible worst moments are

[1:34:32] objectively interesting I mean even when

[1:34:34] Rya was diagnosed I remember there was

[1:34:36] this tiny little awakened part of my

[1:34:38] mind that was like and I put it away

[1:34:41] really quickly but there was a

[1:34:42] recognition where I was like this is

[1:34:44] interesting like this is the person who

[1:34:46] I can't live without this is a one

[1:34:48] person like if if God had come to me and

[1:34:50] said

[1:34:52] I'd be like you can take all the rest of

[1:34:54] them

[1:34:54] >> like all of them they can all come they

[1:34:56] can all go you know like this is the one

[1:34:59] that you can't take

[1:35:01] this is the one that you can't take this

[1:35:03] is the one that I can't live without and

[1:35:04] they're like okay we're going to take

[1:35:05] that one and Even in the grief there was

[1:35:09] this teeny little thing was like that's

[1:35:11] interesting like that is really

[1:35:13] objectively interesting like oh because

[1:35:16] lots of times you think you have your

[1:35:18] purpose and then life will teach you

[1:35:21] otherwise like my purpose is to be this

[1:35:23] tremendous parent

[1:35:24] >> like I'm going to be this great parent

[1:35:26] and and then

[1:35:28] you fail like you have a child who what

[1:35:32] Ra Bell always goes everyone's got that

[1:35:34] one kid you know it's like you got one

[1:35:37] that it worked with and then you've got

[1:35:38] one that it just doesn't work with and

[1:35:41] and then maybe they spend their entire

[1:35:43] life estranged from you and maybe they

[1:35:44] spend their entire life blaming you and

[1:35:46] you're like well this is interesting

[1:35:47] because I totally thought like so much

[1:35:50] of my life is things where I'm like I

[1:35:51] thought I was going to be good at this

[1:35:53] you know I thought it was my purpose to

[1:35:54] do this and maybe it wasn't you know and

[1:35:58] Leonard Cohen has a beautiful beautiful

[1:36:00] line in a documentary about him where he

[1:36:02] said you know one of the great

[1:36:04] sufferings that we often have is this

[1:36:06] feeling that there was some mission that

[1:36:08] we were supposed to do and we failed at

[1:36:11] it. And he said, "But maybe," and he

[1:36:13] then went and lived in a monastery for a

[1:36:15] ton of time and meditated on it until he

[1:36:17] came away with like, "But what if

[1:36:19] there's a deeper mission, which is to

[1:36:21] fail at it?"

[1:36:23] >> And what if it was never yours? You

[1:36:26] know, you took on the mantle and the

[1:36:28] assignment that this is what you're here

[1:36:29] for. And and the sort of punchline is

[1:36:34] apparently not, right? Like apparently

[1:36:37] not. And what if just sitting in your

[1:36:40] shared humanity of the wreckage of your

[1:36:44] expectation is actually the portal to

[1:36:49] joining us here in our shared humanity.

[1:36:53] Like welcome to your family. Here we

[1:36:55] are.

[1:36:55] >> Mhm.

[1:36:56] >> Like we all thought we were supposed to

[1:36:57] do something,

[1:36:58] >> you know? And like

[1:37:00] >> even now like we're supposed to save the

[1:37:01] planet. Like maybe not. I don't know.

[1:37:04] Like I can't I'm like I don't know and I

[1:37:07] feel like we're failing at it but like

[1:37:09] are we supposed to do like I don't know.

[1:37:12] So just being present to whatever is

[1:37:16] there's a line I love that Byron Katy

[1:37:17] says whenever I argue against reality I

[1:37:19] lose but only always. Um, so a lot of my

[1:37:23] purpose anxiety in the world is about

[1:37:25] like I want to imprint myself on the

[1:37:27] world in this particular way and reality

[1:37:29] is like no

[1:37:33] >> I share that. I share that. I mean first

[1:37:34] of all you know that's beautiful what

[1:37:37] you just shared and I think highly uh

[1:37:40] advisable and actionable in this moment

[1:37:42] that we're experiencing. Like it's

[1:37:44] there's a lot of crazy [ __ ] going on

[1:37:45] right there. It's very easy to get

[1:37:47] disregulated or caught up in your

[1:37:48] opinions or inflamed

[1:37:51] uh you know around your attachment to

[1:37:53] certain ideas and it feels like that is

[1:37:56] a pathway to equinimity and and

[1:38:00] compassion for yourself and other

[1:38:01] people. And I think that we need that

[1:38:03] right now. You know, in my Earth school

[1:38:06] classroom at the moment, like you know,

[1:38:08] all of what you said is like kind of

[1:38:09] coming up for me right now. Like I I

[1:38:11] just had this serious spinal surgery

[1:38:14] about five weeks ago

[1:38:17] and I'm being forced to, you know, stop

[1:38:21] and slow down and just be with myself.

[1:38:25] And it's sort of like COVID lockdown

[1:38:27] except with with physical pain and, you

[1:38:30] know, not being able to move your body.

[1:38:31] Like I'm here at work, it's fine, but

[1:38:33] but not being able to kind of do the

[1:38:36] things that make you feel like yourself.

[1:38:38] And I'm very good at like outrunning

[1:38:40] anything that makes me feel

[1:38:41] uncomfortable and hiding in my work or

[1:38:43] just, you know, kind of escaping. Like I

[1:38:45] like what I do and it's and my life is

[1:38:47] good. Like there's not like any kind of

[1:38:49] chaos happening or or huge problems, but

[1:38:52] I do have a lot of self-awareness around

[1:38:55] this need to like be seen and validated.

[1:38:58] um that's driven by this notion that

[1:39:02] love is transactional and needs to be

[1:39:04] earned through achievement and you know

[1:39:08] approval and accolades and all that kind

[1:39:10] of stuff and obviously that's a hydonic

[1:39:12] treadmill that leads nowhere and

[1:39:14] >> I don't want to you know be a victim of

[1:39:16] this st's dilemma

[1:39:19] >> the solution to it is

[1:39:21] >> being with myself and not being able to

[1:39:23] move or escape you know this discomfort

[1:39:26] but to actually sit with it and

[1:39:28] cultivate, you know, this presence with

[1:39:31] that discomfort as a as a teaching tool

[1:39:34] to like learn a different way to let go

[1:39:37] to realize like

[1:39:39] >> whatever attachment I have to the

[1:39:42] meaning of who I am or what I do or this

[1:39:45] notion of purpose like it's all these

[1:39:47] are just constructs. Yeah. you know,

[1:39:49] that we create and adorn with meaning

[1:39:51] that create more suffering. And and for

[1:39:55] as much as you know my behavior traits

[1:39:58] have led me to a certain privileged

[1:40:00] place in the world, they are also the

[1:40:03] Achilles heels that are in the way, you

[1:40:05] know, obstructing, you know, my

[1:40:07] connection with a higher consciousness

[1:40:09] and a deeper sense of meaning and

[1:40:11] greater connection with other people and

[1:40:13] more intimacy and all these other things

[1:40:15] that

[1:40:16] >> I sort of

[1:40:17] >> am too quick to kind of shove aside as

[1:40:21] optional and I'll get to it And you know

[1:40:23] I have more time. But now you know what

[1:40:26] I mean. So this is

[1:40:27] >> Was that you needed more time?

[1:40:28] >> Yeah. You know what I mean?

[1:40:30] >> Done and done. Let's let's ground him.

[1:40:32] >> Yeah. Yeah.

[1:40:33] >> Yeah. Yeah. You're being held in from

[1:40:35] recess,

[1:40:36] >> right?

[1:40:38] >> School. Like you're not allowed to go

[1:40:39] out there on the playground.

[1:40:40] >> I can't. Yeah. I can't I can come out

[1:40:41] and talk to you, but then I need to go

[1:40:43] back and think about what you just

[1:40:45] shared with me. There's a Bawin line I

[1:40:48] think that says the only thing that

[1:40:49] belongs to you is anything that cannot

[1:40:52] be this is interesting to say in

[1:40:54] California at this moment but anything

[1:40:55] that cannot be burned in a fire lost in

[1:40:58] a shipwreck or stolen by pirates and

[1:41:02] that doesn't leave much you know

[1:41:04] including your own body

[1:41:06] so

[1:41:08] what belongs to us I think is actually

[1:41:10] like if we start to what does belong to

[1:41:13] you then also I think is the answer to

[1:41:15] like What are you? Which I think is also

[1:41:17] the answer to what is God.

[1:41:19] >> It's like the thing that cannot be lost

[1:41:21] in a shipwreck. The thing that cannot be

[1:41:23] burned by fire, the thing that cannot be

[1:41:25] stolen by a pirate. What what is that

[1:41:27] thing? And the the Ramana Maharashi used

[1:41:30] to tell his students, the great Indian

[1:41:33] sage and teacher, he was like, there's

[1:41:35] two questions. Doesn't matter which one

[1:41:37] you use. He he was just like, "Your

[1:41:38] choice, dealer's choice. I have the

[1:41:41] solution for you. It's just in you get

[1:41:44] to pick. You either spend your life

[1:41:46] meditating on who is God or you spend

[1:41:48] your life meditating on who am I and

[1:41:51] just sit and keep asking that question.

[1:41:54] Either one of them will get you to the

[1:41:56] same place. It doesn't matter which way.

[1:41:58] It's like both paths lead to each other.

[1:42:00] You're going to bump into God by asking

[1:42:02] who am I? And you're going to bump into

[1:42:04] yourself by asking who is God? And

[1:42:07] that's the thing that that's all you

[1:42:09] have like really I think. I think and I

[1:42:14] think the reason I feel like I know that

[1:42:15] to be true is when I remember that my

[1:42:18] whole nervous system is like oh thank

[1:42:20] god like

[1:42:21] >> are you able are you able to like

[1:42:22] >> thank God I don't have to go then I

[1:42:24] don't have to go hustle then I'll go and

[1:42:26] hustle till I forget.

[1:42:27] >> Can you marinate in that consciousness

[1:42:28] and you know kind of stay present with

[1:42:30] it throughout the day or do you just

[1:42:32] have fleeting glimpses of that that or

[1:42:35] is it like a practice to always try to

[1:42:37] return to that place?

[1:42:39] >> I couldn't for a long time because my

[1:42:40] shame was in the way. I think that was

[1:42:42] the biggest thing like I couldn't sit

[1:42:47] still because I was in so much shame and

[1:42:50] um like so anytime I tried to sit still

[1:42:52] and meditate all I felt was shame

[1:42:54] including shame that I can't sit still

[1:42:56] and meditate but but then below that

[1:42:58] like multiple subb

[1:43:01] like my mind would just come out with a

[1:43:03] parade of horrors of like all my

[1:43:04] shortcomings and and failures and

[1:43:07] disasters and you're garbage person and

[1:43:10] a fraud and You know, I mean, like just

[1:43:12] it was it like it would feel like hell

[1:43:14] to me to sit quietly. And I think 12step

[1:43:19] really has made it easier for me to

[1:43:22] meditate because I'm sort of like at

[1:43:24] this point with the transparency that

[1:43:26] comes in recovery. It's like, bring me

[1:43:29] one of those things, those horrors that

[1:43:31] I did.

[1:43:32] >> Let me take it out of the subb, bring it

[1:43:35] to the room, tell a bunch of people

[1:43:37] about it. You know, like one of my

[1:43:39] friends and I in the room, like one of

[1:43:40] our rules is once a week we call each

[1:43:41] other and we're like, "This is the thing

[1:43:42] I don't want anyone to know about me

[1:43:44] today." So I was like, "Let's take this

[1:43:46] thing out, show it to someone, like let

[1:43:49] them sit in a loving presence for me

[1:43:51] while I reveal this. The world doesn't

[1:43:52] explode because they now know this

[1:43:55] awful, shameful thing, and then I'm

[1:43:57] going to show it to God." And God's

[1:43:58] like, "I know.

[1:44:01] >> You're not telling me anything new." And

[1:44:03] then and then I'm going to take it to my

[1:44:04] sponsor and it's like did I do did I do

[1:44:08] something that was horrible? Like did I

[1:44:10] do something that was wrong? Did I do

[1:44:12] something that was hurtful?

[1:44:14] Did I do something that I need to

[1:44:17] immediately fix and not manage but like

[1:44:22] take accountability for. So instead of

[1:44:24] just stewing in this constant,

[1:44:26] >> you know, like half of Eat, Pray, Love

[1:44:27] in the India section is just me

[1:44:29] describing how much I hated meditating

[1:44:30] cuz I was suffering like I was just, it

[1:44:33] was just like watching the worst movie

[1:44:34] in the entire world. It's like a life

[1:44:36] review in heaven where your life is

[1:44:38] awful and it's all your fault, you know,

[1:44:40] and it's like here's another thing you

[1:44:41] did. Here's another thing you did. You

[1:44:43] know, it was horrible. But now I'm like,

[1:44:45] "Oh, there's a thing I did." And then

[1:44:46] I'm like, "Oh, you're right. I did do

[1:44:48] that." Like that's kind of the way to

[1:44:50] defeat that shame. It's like when the

[1:44:51] devil comes knocking you, invite them in

[1:44:52] for tea. What's your worst? Like, show

[1:44:54] me the worst thing I did. I'm like, wow,

[1:44:55] I acknowledge that I did that. I'm going

[1:44:57] to share that thing that I did with

[1:44:59] somebody. Then I'm going to take it to

[1:45:00] my sponsor and be like, how do I how do

[1:45:02] I make an amends for this? And then that

[1:45:05] thing doesn't have any power over me

[1:45:06] anymore. So, just doing that like so

[1:45:09] steadily over the last six years. Like,

[1:45:11] like I just wrote an amends letter

[1:45:13] yesterday to somebody that I harmed like

[1:45:16] 35 years ago that's like in one of my

[1:45:18] subb. And I'm like, I think it's time to

[1:45:21] reach out to this person. And it's like

[1:45:23] a long ongoing process. So the more of

[1:45:26] those I do, the less power that

[1:45:29] awfulness has over me. And then I can

[1:45:31] sit for a really long time and just be.

[1:45:34] And when I do that and I get really

[1:45:36] quiet and I sit there for a long time,

[1:45:38] what I hear is, "I love you. I love you.

[1:45:40] I love you." That's all I hear. Which is

[1:45:42] all I've ever wanted to hear.

[1:45:44] >> Which is what I was doing all of this

[1:45:46] out here to try to get people to say,

[1:45:48] >> right? But you're you're getting the

[1:45:49] real the real [ __ ]

[1:45:50] >> I'm getting the from the well that

[1:45:52] doesn't run dry.

[1:45:52] >> Yeah.

[1:45:53] >> Yeah.

[1:45:54] >> Rehea was modeling that level of

[1:45:56] truthfulness all along. Like it's sort

[1:45:58] of breadcrumbs there, right? Like that

[1:46:01] was something that was very attractive

[1:46:03] about her. Like just her past didn't own

[1:46:06] her.

[1:46:06] >> Yeah.

[1:46:06] >> Because she had learned in the rooms

[1:46:08] that like honesty will set you free.

[1:46:11] Like the the idea that by sharing with

[1:46:14] another another person, you know, in the

[1:46:16] construct of of 12step or or otherwise,

[1:46:19] like there is a freedom that comes with

[1:46:21] that where that thing that you've pushed

[1:46:24] down and are so afraid to share and feel

[1:46:26] like if you shared it, the world is

[1:46:27] going to collapse because the world is

[1:46:29] not a safe place. And you're a hyper

[1:46:31] vigilant person and you're scanning the

[1:46:32] room and you know where everybody is.

[1:46:35] >> God, nobody moves, nobody gets hurt,

[1:46:36] >> nobody, God forbid, they know this,

[1:46:38] right? Right?

[1:46:39] >> And then you find out like, oh

[1:46:41] >> nobody cares and actually other people

[1:46:44] relate to this and all of that energy

[1:46:46] and shame and guilt was for what?

[1:46:49] >> Yeah. And it's the contrary action

[1:46:51] because you know one of the lines that I

[1:46:54] say in the book is that there's this

[1:46:57] series of famous letters between Bill W.

[1:46:59] um the founder of AA and Carl Young. Um,

[1:47:03] and in it, one of the things that Carl

[1:47:04] Young says is like, you know, the hunger

[1:47:07] for alcohol is a sort of low-level

[1:47:08] spiritual hunger. What what's what it's

[1:47:12] sort of semi-adequately doing is giving

[1:47:15] a person a sense of a connection with

[1:47:16] the divine probably because the shame

[1:47:19] drops away, right? It's like I don't

[1:47:21] have to think. I don't have to know who

[1:47:23] I am anymore. I can check out and now I

[1:47:25] actually feel good because I'm not, you

[1:47:27] know, until the until the shame the next

[1:47:29] day is even worse, right? But but he

[1:47:31] said without a connection to the divine

[1:47:33] the average person cannot resist. I

[1:47:35] think his exact line was like what the

[1:47:36] medieval people rightfully called the

[1:47:38] devil. And I find that line like really

[1:47:41] interesting. And one of the things that

[1:47:43] I said in the book is like if Satan

[1:47:46] existed, and I didn't grow up with a

[1:47:49] Satan concept, so that doesn't mean a

[1:47:50] lot to me, but like if Satan existed, he

[1:47:53] could scarcely do better in terms of

[1:47:55] like creating misery than to talk inside

[1:48:00] your mind and feed you this like ticker

[1:48:03] tape of you're the worst, you suck, it's

[1:48:07] all your fault, if anyone knows this,

[1:48:10] they'll hate you. You are uniquely

[1:48:12] [ __ ] You are like uniquely broken.

[1:48:16] Nobody will ever be able to understand

[1:48:17] you. You deserve relief. You deserve

[1:48:20] relief from this. You should go get

[1:48:22] relief by any means. You deserve to get

[1:48:24] relief by any means necessary. And don't

[1:48:26] tell anyone I said this. Like the big

[1:48:28] thing is don't tell anyone I said this.

[1:48:30] Like this must be kept in a chamber of

[1:48:32] secret. So I'm going to torment you from

[1:48:33] within, but you're not allowed to say

[1:48:35] that I exist, you know? And so the the

[1:48:38] counteraction to that and I think why

[1:48:40] 12step for all its faults and it's not

[1:48:43] for everyone works so well is because

[1:48:45] it's like oh that's what we're going to

[1:48:47] lead with.

[1:48:49] >> You're going to raise your hand and be

[1:48:50] like here's what I did you know like

[1:48:53] here's what you know and in what I found

[1:48:55] what I love about the rooms and I know

[1:48:56] you get this is like the laughter.

[1:48:58] >> Yeah. Everybody loves it. Like instead

[1:48:59] of it being like this horrible thing,

[1:49:01] everyone's like, "Hi, yeah, me too." And

[1:49:03] then I had a good idea, you know, and

[1:49:05] all of a sudden it's like the power is

[1:49:07] >> it's connection. People the facts of our

[1:49:10] experience are different, but there's

[1:49:12] the shared emotional veillance of it

[1:49:15] all. So even though somebody's telling a

[1:49:17] crazy story, it's like very different

[1:49:18] from your story, but you're like, I know

[1:49:20] what that feels like.

[1:49:21] >> Yeah.

[1:49:22] >> I have my version of that in my life.

[1:49:24] And so

[1:49:25] >> things are funnier than they actually

[1:49:26] are because of that. You're like, I know

[1:49:29] this. Yeah.

[1:49:30] >> You know,

[1:49:30] >> it's so comforting, right? And you're

[1:49:33] right. Rehea had that and she was great

[1:49:34] at it. And that was what was so

[1:49:36] beautiful to me because I was doing like

[1:49:39] every word of my mouth was a press

[1:49:41] release, you know? It's like I've got to

[1:49:43] like get the wording on this right, you

[1:49:46] know, so that like people don't set on

[1:49:48] set upon me with pitchforks and flame,

[1:49:50] you know? It's like stay safe, stay

[1:49:52] safe, stay safe, stay safe. Like that

[1:49:54] was the the drum beat. She was just

[1:49:55] like,

[1:49:57] let's just throw it out there.

[1:49:58] >> But the flip side of the I'm a piece of

[1:50:00] [ __ ] consciousness is to be able to

[1:50:03] simultaneously also believe that you're

[1:50:05] the [ __ ] best.

[1:50:07] >> Oh yeah.

[1:50:07] >> You know what I mean? Like there's a

[1:50:08] superiority complex, you know, built

[1:50:11] into that. That is, I think,

[1:50:14] >> unique to the addict.

[1:50:16] >> The ability to hold those two

[1:50:18] counterpoints.

[1:50:19] >> Yeah.

[1:50:20] >> At the same time.

[1:50:20] >> Well, that's the ego. It's like I'm the

[1:50:22] best, I'm the worst. It doesn't mind

[1:50:24] being the worst as long as it's the most

[1:50:25] something.

[1:50:27] >> Like I'll be the most, right? Am I Did I

[1:50:30] win? Did I win the worst? You know, do I

[1:50:32] get a trophy? Am I important? Because

[1:50:34] I'm the biggest piece of [ __ ] you know?

[1:50:36] And it's I had a sponsor very early on

[1:50:38] who I used to love because I would call

[1:50:39] him and I would like share these safe

[1:50:42] self-hating feelings that I was having.

[1:50:43] Like I'm like, I'm so ashamed about this

[1:50:45] and I'm so embarrassed about this and I

[1:50:46] don't know what to do about this and and

[1:50:48] he would say, "Are you thinking about

[1:50:49] yourself?"

[1:50:51] like he would just say like, "Oh, it

[1:50:52] sounds like you're thinking about

[1:50:53] yourself. Are you thinking about

[1:50:54] yourself?"

[1:50:55] >> And um I was like, "Yeah, I'm thinking

[1:50:56] about yourself." He's like, "That's not

[1:50:58] a good idea."

[1:50:58] >> Yeah.

[1:50:59] >> You know, he's like, "How about you do

[1:51:01] some service? Anybody you can help

[1:51:03] today? Like, let's break that."

[1:51:06] >> The antidote to selfobsession.

[1:51:07] >> Yeah. Like, is there a newcomer you can

[1:51:10] talk to? Is there somebody, you know, is

[1:51:11] there like an act of kindness you can do

[1:51:13] for another human being? Or do you just

[1:51:14] want to sit here thinking about

[1:51:16] yourself?

[1:51:17] >> Yeah. Well, because that that's like

[1:51:20] it's doing something for you. It's like

[1:51:22] feeding your dopamine or whatever, like

[1:51:25] nourishing that notion that you're the

[1:51:27] worst or whatever.

[1:51:29] >> There's a weird

[1:51:30] >> dysfunctional comfort in that.

[1:51:32] >> Yeah. Well, it's the the line they

[1:51:34] always say is, "I'm not much, but I'm

[1:51:36] the only thing I ever think about."

[1:51:37] >> Right.

[1:51:41] And that's the beautiful thing about

[1:51:43] being another bozo on the bus, you know,

[1:51:45] like like I I mean I when I first came

[1:51:47] in, I'm like I'm a public figure. I

[1:51:49] can't be in this 12step room talking

[1:51:51] about these absolutely shameful episodes

[1:51:54] of sexual, romantic, and ethical

[1:51:57] degradation that I both committed and

[1:52:00] allowed myself to receive. People are

[1:52:01] going to go to page six about this.

[1:52:03] They're going to tweet about it. They're

[1:52:04] going to, you know, and and my first

[1:52:06] sponsor was like, "You're actually just

[1:52:07] another bozo on the bus." Mhm.

[1:52:10] >> Like you're not Elizabeth Gilbert here.

[1:52:13] >> Nobody actually really cares here. Like

[1:52:16] they're here to get their own recovery.

[1:52:18] >> Doing this thing here in LA. Like I I I

[1:52:20] can tell you that the that that the

[1:52:22] well-known people that that get well and

[1:52:25] stay well are the ones who get over that

[1:52:27] whole thing, you know? Yeah.

[1:52:29] >> And the ones who don't are the ones who

[1:52:31] do get caught up in that in that

[1:52:32] narrative.

[1:52:33] >> Yeah.

[1:52:34] >> It's got to be hard though. I'm

[1:52:35] sympathetic to that. Like I understand

[1:52:36] that fear. Yeah, but there really was a

[1:52:39] reckoning moment

[1:52:40] >> especially when you can't you have you

[1:52:42] struggle to trust people.

[1:52:42] >> Well, and especially because I think you

[1:52:44] mentioned at the beginning I feel like

[1:52:46] sex sex addiction and especially

[1:52:48] anything having to do with sex and love

[1:52:51] addiction for women carries the same

[1:52:53] stigma now that like being an alcoholic

[1:52:56] would have carried 40 years ago. Yeah, I

[1:52:57] think I think you're right about

[1:52:58] >> and that's why people don't know about

[1:52:59] any of these programs because it's like

[1:53:01] for shame, you know, and that's another

[1:53:04] reason why I

[1:53:07] with counsel from my sponsor made the

[1:53:09] decision to be open about it because

[1:53:11] it's like, well, if somebody's going to

[1:53:12] do I'll do it, you know, like I'll do it

[1:53:15] because everybody already knows

[1:53:16] everything about me, you know, like I've

[1:53:18] already like made it a habit of telling

[1:53:21] everybody everything. I don't have a

[1:53:22] partner to embarrass.

[1:53:24] Like my family's pretty handsoff, so

[1:53:26] they don't care. I don't have kids to

[1:53:27] embarrass. So like why don't I do it?

[1:53:30] Like I'll talk about it and then if you

[1:53:32] hear something that I'm saying that

[1:53:34] reminds you of yourself then you can go

[1:53:36] look into it and know that it exists.

[1:53:37] >> That's the way I feel about it. uh but

[1:53:39] there are traditionalists who would say

[1:53:42] that that's a violation of the tradition

[1:53:44] you know not sharing uh you know

[1:53:45] publicly about these kinds of things and

[1:53:47] I understand the reasons behind that but

[1:53:49] >> and we all have our different line with

[1:53:51] with that you know and I never quite

[1:53:53] know where to land on that but I I

[1:53:56] generally heir on the you know kind of

[1:53:59] the liberal side of it because you know

[1:54:02] for the very reasons that you that you

[1:54:03] said like there are people out there who

[1:54:05] are suffering who either aren't aware

[1:54:07] about this at or have an affiliation or

[1:54:10] or a mental construct of it that's based

[1:54:12] on television or movies or or something

[1:54:15] like that. And I think it's important to

[1:54:17] humanize it. And I think especially when

[1:54:19] it comes to like SLA and the things that

[1:54:21] you're talking about, like this is

[1:54:23] unchartered territory for a lot of

[1:54:24] people.

[1:54:25] >> Yeah. It's interesting. I actually

[1:54:27] nerded out the way I'd love to and did a

[1:54:29] deep dive into what the founders had to

[1:54:31] say about this.

[1:54:32] >> Oh, really?

[1:54:33] >> Yeah. Because there is a lot I mean and

[1:54:34] there isn't a consensus on it in the

[1:54:36] rooms. I mean, this is real inside

[1:54:37] baseball recovery stuff, but there

[1:54:39] >> people get really heated about it. And

[1:54:41] um there's there have been articles in

[1:54:42] the New York Times about it. Is it okay?

[1:54:43] Is it not okay?

[1:54:44] >> You know, people are like, "It's an

[1:54:46] anonymous program. It's right there in

[1:54:48] the title." You know, and and for me,

[1:54:50] it's like, well, I would certainly never

[1:54:51] blow up anybody else's anonymity. But

[1:54:54] but I don't see anywhere where it says

[1:54:56] that you have to

[1:54:58] >> you're not allowed to identify yourself

[1:55:00] as an addict. And um there's also to

[1:55:02] consider that when all of this stuff was

[1:55:03] created, you would lose your job if you

[1:55:06] were an alcoholic back in 1935. You

[1:55:08] would be shunned from from your

[1:55:10] community. Like it was essential that

[1:55:12] there was no discussion about this

[1:55:13] outside of the rooms. And yet

[1:55:15] >> Bill Wrote a couple of really

[1:55:16] interesting essays about this very

[1:55:18] topic. And um and I was like, what's

[1:55:20] Bill got to say about this? And his

[1:55:22] position was you should talk about it

[1:55:25] all the time. You should always talk

[1:55:27] about being an addict and you should

[1:55:29] always talk about being an addict who

[1:55:31] has found recovery because you are a

[1:55:33] beacon of hope for people

[1:55:35] >> who need to see that there is a

[1:55:37] possibility of healing from this thing

[1:55:39] that has dogged them forever. But you

[1:55:41] don't have to get into the specifics of

[1:55:44] naming your program. You can say, "I

[1:55:45] found recovery in a 12step program that

[1:55:48] deals with alcoholism."

[1:55:49] >> You don't have to say I found recovery

[1:55:51] in AA. And his reason, which I thought

[1:55:53] was really subtle for that, was if

[1:55:55] somebody like if somebody hears that,

[1:55:57] they'll go find it. But he also said,

[1:55:59] "If you if someone dislikes you," he's

[1:56:03] like, "We have to save the rooms from

[1:56:04] people's personalities." He's like, "If

[1:56:06] somebody dislikes you and they hear that

[1:56:08] you're an AA and they need AA, they

[1:56:10] might not go to AA,

[1:56:11] >> but if you just say like, I was sick and

[1:56:14] now I'm well." And I found a 12step

[1:56:16] program about that. He was like, "Talk

[1:56:17] about it. Write about it. Put it in the

[1:56:19] papers. Like, everybody should know

[1:56:21] about this. Other thing they're afraid

[1:56:22] of is if it's a well-known person and

[1:56:25] you know they're just going everywhere

[1:56:27] talking about it um and they're in early

[1:56:29] sobriety and they relapse or they

[1:56:32] relapse later like that

[1:56:34] >> that you know casts a shadow on on the

[1:56:37] viability of the program.

[1:56:39] >> Suddenly it's like oh that doesn't work

[1:56:40] >> it doesn't work

[1:56:40] >> because this person didn't work.

[1:56:42] >> And these things come in waves as

[1:56:43] somebody who's been around for a long

[1:56:44] time. Like every couple years there's a

[1:56:46] sort of zeitgeist moment in the press

[1:56:47] where it's like this doesn't work and

[1:56:49] here's the new thing. I've seen like,

[1:56:51] you know, so many versions of that. But

[1:56:53] what's stuck around

[1:56:55] >> this

[1:56:56] >> miracle where all these people who can

[1:56:59] barely get along have somehow figured

[1:57:01] out to create this thing that has

[1:57:03] thrived across the globe. Like it's

[1:57:05] really insane

[1:57:06] >> for almost 100 years.

[1:57:07] >> I mean, it is a miracle

[1:57:08] >> and it's free. What I always say, it's

[1:57:10] like, where else can you stumble into a

[1:57:14] room full of strangers, broken,

[1:57:17] penniless, alone, desperate, not knowing

[1:57:21] where to go, who to turn, and this group

[1:57:24] of people will take you in and hold you

[1:57:27] and help you and ask for nothing in

[1:57:31] return. It's incredible.

[1:57:33] >> That's the part that's so interesting to

[1:57:35] me is the asking for nothing in return.

[1:57:37] Um because so much of my relationship

[1:57:41] history has been transactional.

[1:57:43] You know, like I I'm going to earn your

[1:57:46] love, attention, validation, and

[1:57:47] acceptance by huge acts of service or

[1:57:50] overgiving or you know, I'm like we're

[1:57:53] going to I'm going to make sure that I

[1:57:54] get you locked down. My first sponsor I

[1:57:56] used to bring up gifts like I mean

[1:57:58] that's my giving gifts to people is my

[1:58:00] love language, but it's also my

[1:58:02] manipulation language. It's a it's a

[1:58:03] sort of a thin line where it's like I'm

[1:58:05] going to give you this thing so you love

[1:58:07] me and don't leave me. And I remember

[1:58:08] her saying like you I don't need this

[1:58:11] you know like it's very sweet that you

[1:58:13] gave me this necklace. I mean now I

[1:58:15] think it's so

[1:58:16] >> like if one of my sponses was like here

[1:58:18] I gave you a like I'd be like honey it's

[1:58:20] not what we're doing here you know like

[1:58:22] that's not this is the one place that

[1:58:24] that's not what we're doing here. And as

[1:58:27] your sponsor, like that's what I tell my

[1:58:29] sponses now like actually and I remember

[1:58:32] my sponsor saying to this to me and it

[1:58:33] didn't make any sense where she's like

[1:58:35] I'm getting much more out of this than

[1:58:36] you are taking you through the steps.

[1:58:38] And I was like that can't be true.

[1:58:40] You're giving me all this time for free

[1:58:42] and dealing with my [ __ ] you know but

[1:58:45] now that I have spons I'm like oh yeah

[1:58:47] there's this is such a gift to be able

[1:58:50] to do this. How has this affected your

[1:58:54] creativity and and your output? Like

[1:58:57] you've, you know, opted out of like a

[1:58:59] lot of drama and a lot of, you know,

[1:59:01] energy kind of placed in the wrong

[1:59:02] direction and you've replaced it with

[1:59:05] your engagement with the program and

[1:59:06] recovery and things like that. But

[1:59:08] there's a lot of head space that is now

[1:59:11] freed up.

[1:59:12] >> I've written three books in the last six

[1:59:14] years, which is crazy.

[1:59:16] >> Wow. I mean, not that that should be a

[1:59:18] measure of anything other than, wow,

[1:59:20] look what happens when all of this

[1:59:23] energy,

[1:59:24] like I've had a hole in my boat that

[1:59:26] I've been like, I've been simultaneously

[1:59:28] rowing the boat and bailing the boat

[1:59:29] out. And I'm actually really proud of

[1:59:31] myself for how far I got

[1:59:33] >> rowing with one arm, you know, while

[1:59:35] simultaneously bailing out the boat. But

[1:59:37] like stepping out of the drama cycle as

[1:59:41] you just mentioned with sexual and

[1:59:43] romantic engagement, it's like I got two

[1:59:45] arms to row now. And it's like whoa.

[1:59:49] >> Like this is this is wild. I mean, one

[1:59:51] of the beautiful definitions I heard of

[1:59:52] of of addiction is addiction is giving

[1:59:55] up everything for one thing and recovery

[1:59:58] is giving up one thing for everything.

[2:00:00] And my everything has gotten so big.

[2:00:04] Like, and it's not just the creativity,

[2:00:06] but this is the one that kind of a

[2:00:08] little bit breaks my heart. Like I've

[2:00:10] always had great friends and

[2:00:13] a lot of friends, but my relationships,

[2:00:16] my central kind of like flagship

[2:00:19] relationship, whoever it was, whoever I

[2:00:21] had taken hostage

[2:00:23] at the moment, whoever I had decided was

[2:00:25] like that person at the center of my

[2:00:27] life, the amount, the sheer amount of

[2:00:30] energy that I poured into that was so

[2:00:34] enormous. And now when I'm not doing

[2:00:36] that, I look around and I'm like, I had

[2:00:37] these incredible friends. Like I've got

[2:00:40] these decadel long, decadesl long

[2:00:42] friendships that I had been just

[2:00:45] nominally

[2:00:46] attending to for my entire life.

[2:00:48] Wonderful people, like loving,

[2:00:51] extraordinary people. And it's like it

[2:00:53] brings tears to my eyes. I was like, you

[2:00:54] were there the whole time. Like you were

[2:00:56] there like I I was sending you a

[2:00:58] Christmas card once a year and we could

[2:01:01] have been doing this. Like we could have

[2:01:02] been having this amazing generative,

[2:01:04] creative, really fun, incredible

[2:01:06] friendship. Like community existed,

[2:01:10] >> you know, creativity existed, God

[2:01:12] existed. Like it's like all this other

[2:01:13] stuff was there that was being blocked

[2:01:15] by my one thing because that thing was

[2:01:19] like the thing I was obsessed with and

[2:01:20] fixated on.

[2:01:21] >> And now you could take it all the way to

[2:01:22] the river.

[2:01:24] >> Hopefully.

[2:01:25] >> Explain explain what that means. The

[2:01:26] title of the book.

[2:01:28] >> So my partner Rehea was a New Yorker. I

[2:01:30] mean, she was a Syrian immigrant raised

[2:01:32] in Detroit, but identified as a New

[2:01:35] Yorker and particularly a New Yorker on

[2:01:36] the Lower East Side. And she had this

[2:01:38] operative metaphor for describing her

[2:01:40] friendships. And she said, "There's you

[2:01:42] got your Fifth Avenue friends." So, she

[2:01:43] would look at a map of New York and be

[2:01:45] like, "Right here in the center is Fifth

[2:01:46] Avenue. So, your Fifth Avenue friends

[2:01:48] are the people that you're completely

[2:01:50] superficial with, and it's professional

[2:01:52] relationships." And, you know, you've

[2:01:54] got a sort of mask on, they've got a

[2:01:55] mask on. You know, they have a mask on.

[2:01:57] They know you do. You don't want to take

[2:01:58] the mask off. you know, you just you're

[2:02:00] acting a certain role. And then you go

[2:02:02] to like a little farther east and you go

[2:02:04] to like your fourth and third avenue

[2:02:05] friends and you start to let them see

[2:02:08] you a little bit more and there's a

[2:02:10] little bit like the mask starts to come

[2:02:12] off. And then you get to your like

[2:02:13] second and first avenue friends and now

[2:02:17] there's intimacy. Like they know about

[2:02:19] your history, you know about their

[2:02:20] history. Maybe you went to their

[2:02:22] wedding. Like you've met their family,

[2:02:24] you start to see behind the public

[2:02:25] persona. And she's like, "But it's not

[2:02:27] till you get to your Avenue A, B, C, and

[2:02:30] D friends, your alphabet city friends.

[2:02:33] Those are the people who have been in

[2:02:35] the [ __ ] with you and they know

[2:02:37] everything. Like they know they were

[2:02:39] with you through your divorce and

[2:02:41] through your breakup and through your

[2:02:42] addiction and they dropped you off at

[2:02:44] rehab and like they know all the stuff,

[2:02:47] you know, and they love you anyway. And

[2:02:48] maybe you've had problems with them,

[2:02:49] you've had fights with them, you've had

[2:02:50] to make up. Like you've seen them,

[2:02:52] they've seen you." And then she's like,

[2:02:54] "But if you're really lucky," because

[2:02:57] after Avenue D, there's just the highway

[2:02:59] and then there's the river. She's like,

[2:03:01] "Once in your life, if you're very

[2:03:02] lucky, you might have an all the way to

[2:03:04] the riverfront." And that's

[2:03:06] just makes me cry again to say it, but

[2:03:08] she was always like, "You're my all the

[2:03:09] way to the river friend." Like, "We're

[2:03:10] going to go all the way to the East

[2:03:11] River together." Which means

[2:03:14] you will see everything. Yeah.

[2:03:16] >> Like there will be nothing withheld. And

[2:03:19] they know you. like they know you at the

[2:03:22] depth of the deepest depth that you can

[2:03:24] know somebody and

[2:03:27] she was always like you're my all the

[2:03:28] way to riverfront and I I was I took so

[2:03:30] much pride in it and then when she

[2:03:32] started when we found out she was dying

[2:03:34] we started calling her death the river

[2:03:36] so on the day she found out she had

[2:03:38] terminal cancer she said I want you to

[2:03:39] walk all the way to the river with me

[2:03:42] and god help us I did because as I

[2:03:44] describe in the book if you've ever

[2:03:46] walked all the way from Fifth Avenue to

[2:03:47] the East River it's not a very nice walk

[2:03:49] it's a lot better than it used to be.

[2:03:51] >> It's like back in the day though, it's

[2:03:53] like you're going through projects.

[2:03:54] You're stepping over drug dealer. Like

[2:03:56] like you're walking on needles and crack

[2:03:59] vials. There's dog [ __ ] I mean, like

[2:04:01] the closer you get to the river,

[2:04:03] >> the more intense it is. You got to make

[2:04:04] it across the,

[2:04:05] >> you know, across the highway. You've got

[2:04:07] to find the overpass. There's

[2:04:08] >> and then you get to the East River and

[2:04:10] it's the East River,

[2:04:11] >> right?

[2:04:11] >> Which is like you don't exactly want to

[2:04:13] jump in the East River, you know? So,

[2:04:14] it's

[2:04:15] >> it's harrowing. Like the book the book

[2:04:18] has been described to me as harrowing

[2:04:20] and but I think that true intimacy is

[2:04:25] you know like really allowing yourself

[2:04:26] to be that known I think is a bit

[2:04:29] harrowing because

[2:04:32] we're difficult humans. We're difficult

[2:04:34] and we're full of contradictions and

[2:04:37] dangerous and unreliable and beautiful

[2:04:39] and sublime all at the same time.

[2:04:42] >> Yeah. If you want the beauty and

[2:04:44] transcendence that a relationship can

[2:04:47] deliver in the best way, you got to walk

[2:04:50] past Avenue D and you know like maybe

[2:04:52] step on a syringe or two along the way,

[2:04:55] you know.

[2:04:56] >> Yeah.

[2:04:56] >> Now it's all gentrified. I think didn't

[2:04:58] they just down at like by East River

[2:05:00] also there didn't that new park like

[2:05:02] right on the river just open right now?

[2:05:04] It's all nice.

[2:05:04] >> I'm still picturing the housing projects

[2:05:06] are still there, you know, like the the

[2:05:08] the abandoned parts of the city are

[2:05:10] still there. power plant is there.

[2:05:13] >> Yeah, that weird power plant,

[2:05:14] >> you know, that everybody who lives over

[2:05:15] there has to breathe. And um I remember

[2:05:18] one time, I don't know why I'm thinking

[2:05:19] of this, but when Rya got cancer and

[2:05:20] they put a port in her arm at one point

[2:05:22] so that they could um be able to inject

[2:05:26] her with chemo drugs and not have to

[2:05:28] just keep taking a port in and out. And

[2:05:30] and this was before she had her big drug

[2:05:32] relapse. And we walked we walked out of

[2:05:33] the hospital and she was like her eyes

[2:05:35] were shining and she's like, "Dude, you

[2:05:37] know what I could have done with this

[2:05:38] back in the day?" She's like, she's

[2:05:40] like, I can't freaking believe they they

[2:05:43] do this.

[2:05:44] >> She's like, I could put anything in

[2:05:45] here.

[2:05:45] >> They just they let her leave the

[2:05:47] hospital.

[2:05:47] >> They let me leave the hospital with a

[2:05:49] port in my arm that I could stick a

[2:05:51] needle with anything in it. She was like

[2:05:54] like she was kind of like tweaked by

[2:05:56] She's like, "I could put Jack Daniels in

[2:05:58] this. I could put anything in this. I

[2:05:59] could put like I could shoot anything I

[2:06:01] wanted right into my veins so easily."

[2:06:02] She's like, "It's great." And um and I

[2:06:04] remember we were up in Midtown and like

[2:06:06] she'd just come from chemo. And I was

[2:06:07] like, "If you had to

[2:06:11] find heroin, you know, now after 18

[2:06:14] years clean, how long would it take

[2:06:17] you?" And she I just remember her whole

[2:06:20] demeanor changed and she just like she

[2:06:21] like looked at her watch. She did this

[2:06:23] like really like wolfish kind of look at

[2:06:25] her watch and she's like and she's like

[2:06:26] where are we? And she like clocked the

[2:06:28] street she was on and she goes 15

[2:06:29] minutes.

[2:06:31] 15 minutes I could be an an avenue D. I

[2:06:35] know exactly where to go. And she said

[2:06:36] all I would have to do is point to this.

[2:06:38] Um and and I was like, whoa. And and and

[2:06:42] now that I understand how easy it is to

[2:06:44] be swept into addiction, there's a

[2:06:46] chapter that I have in my book called

[2:06:47] You Will Have 30 Seconds to Save Your

[2:06:49] Life. That's about

[2:06:52] what the the vigilance and this is a

[2:06:54] good use of my vigilance. The vigilance

[2:06:56] and the awareness and that I have to

[2:06:58] keep as I move through the world to not

[2:07:01] be like I could get that in 15 minutes

[2:07:03] you know.

[2:07:04] >> Yeah. My question to you is

[2:07:06] how long would it take you in a, you

[2:07:08] know, in a crowded room walking down the

[2:07:10] street or in New York City to like

[2:07:12] identify at 50 meters like who that

[2:07:14] person is who's going to just light you

[2:07:17] up and fill those needs and do all the

[2:07:20] things that you know you want them to do

[2:07:22] for you. Like to go right back to that

[2:07:24] place.

[2:07:24] >> Getting a little older first of all,

[2:07:26] >> so it might not be it might not be quite

[2:07:28] as easy as it used to. I mean, this

[2:07:30] isn't about me blowing my horn in any

[2:07:33] way. It's not hard for a woman.

[2:07:35] >> Yeah.

[2:07:35] >> You know what I mean? Like you simply

[2:07:37] must agree to make your body available

[2:07:39] to somebody and there will be somebody

[2:07:41] who will happily do that, you know? So

[2:07:42] it's not it's not like you don't have to

[2:07:44] be like a ma I don't have to be like a

[2:07:46] master seductress like you just have to

[2:07:48] be like you know just raise your hand

[2:07:50] and be like anybody, you know, like you

[2:07:53] know someone will. So it's not it's not

[2:07:55] hard, you know. I think it's it's not

[2:07:57] hard. It's not hard for any addict to

[2:08:01] find the thing. Um, the hard thing is to

[2:08:06] not do that. You know, that's the thing.

[2:08:09] And and the hardest thing, I think, is

[2:08:11] to not see is to be able to see where

[2:08:14] you're setting yourself up, where you're

[2:08:15] in dangerous territory. You know, where

[2:08:18] you are not putting yourself in

[2:08:19] dangerous circumstances.

[2:08:22] You know, for an alcoholic, that might

[2:08:24] be mean like I don't hang out in a bar.

[2:08:28] >> Like, I'm just not going to do that to

[2:08:29] myself. I'm just not going to put myself

[2:08:31] in that circumstance.

[2:08:33] >> When you think of that younger Liz in

[2:08:35] Bali on the Eat, Pray, Love train,

[2:08:39] >> you know, doing the meditation and, you

[2:08:41] know, dipping your toe into

[2:08:43] spirituality.

[2:08:44] >> When you reflect back on that time, were

[2:08:46] there lessons imparted to you then that

[2:08:50] you feel like you're only learning now?

[2:08:53] >> Yeah. And every bit of it was necessary,

[2:08:55] too. You know, like there's a common

[2:08:57] question that I'm sure you've heard a

[2:08:59] billion times where interviewers will

[2:09:00] say like, "What would you have told your

[2:09:01] younger self if you could?" And I am

[2:09:04] left with no answer but do everything

[2:09:07] you're going to do. Like do everything

[2:09:09] you're going to do. All of it. You have

[2:09:10] to do all of it. You have to do all the

[2:09:12] great stuff and you have to do all the

[2:09:13] horrible stuff cuz otherwise I don't get

[2:09:15] to be here. Like this is all of that is

[2:09:17] what's going to create where we are now.

[2:09:19] And where we are now is good. Um, so

[2:09:22] yeah, I mean, and I think

[2:09:25] I had glimmers of it, you know, I had

[2:09:28] glimmers of it, but I don't think I

[2:09:31] believed

[2:09:33] that. I mean, and I felt God. I've I've

[2:09:36] I've always loved God. I've always kind

[2:09:38] of believed in God. I've always sensed

[2:09:40] God. I've always loved the wonder and

[2:09:42] the mystery of what I call God, but I've

[2:09:44] never trusted God.

[2:09:46] Not for a minute. It's like, I love you.

[2:09:50] your work is great. Big fan. I'm going

[2:09:52] to control this.

[2:09:53] >> Mhm.

[2:09:54] >> I'm going to control this. So, I think I

[2:09:56] didn't while I felt that I'd had I did

[2:09:59] have beautiful spiritual awakenings in

[2:10:00] that journey as like I'm still driving

[2:10:03] this car

[2:10:04] >> and that's

[2:10:06] you know mixed results.

[2:10:09] >> That's why it's a practice of constantly

[2:10:13] turning it over and turning it over

[2:10:15] again.

[2:10:16] >> Yeah.

[2:10:18] and again and again and again.

[2:10:20] >> I love that the Tibetan Buddhists call

[2:10:22] meditation reme remembering. That's

[2:10:25] their translation for meditation. They

[2:10:26] don't have a word for meditation. It's

[2:10:28] just remembering practice. You just sit

[2:10:29] and remember

[2:10:31] >> what you forgot,

[2:10:33] >> right?

[2:10:33] >> And some of us

[2:10:34] >> that we are all one. We're like I said,

[2:10:36] we're all just trying to get back home,

[2:10:38] right? We're trying to find our way. And

[2:10:40] addicts,

[2:10:41] >> I think, are are fundamentally spiritual

[2:10:43] seekers. They're looking for something.

[2:10:45] They're trying to fill that hole.

[2:10:46] They're doing it in wrong-headed ways,

[2:10:48] but they're very committed and int, you

[2:10:51] know, intent upon finding answers,

[2:10:55] right? And, you know, the gift of of

[2:10:57] bottoming out is that then you're

[2:10:59] blessed with this opportunity to

[2:11:00] redirect that energy in in a healthy

[2:11:02] way. And a lot of people don't don't get

[2:11:05] that.

[2:11:06] >> Well, don't have that. I have a funny

[2:11:08] experience like I totally identify every

[2:11:09] addict. Doesn't matter what it is. Like

[2:11:11] if you're an addict, you're one of my

[2:11:13] one of my people. Like I could sit on

[2:11:14] any meeting, you know, and be like, "Oh,

[2:11:17] yeah." Like I don't do that, you know? I

[2:11:20] don't I'm not a gambler, but I could sit

[2:11:22] in a gambling meeting and I could get

[2:11:24] recovery listening to people talk about

[2:11:26] their recovery from gambling like 100%.

[2:11:29] Cuz I know what it feels like to think

[2:11:32] that you can get this thing somewhere,

[2:11:35] you know? Here's who I don't get. People

[2:11:37] who don't feel like they're on fire with

[2:11:40] questions,

[2:11:42] you know? people who like are just like

[2:11:45] like kind of walking through life and I

[2:11:47] can I can never tell if they're like

[2:11:48] great saints or just super checked out.

[2:11:50] Like people who are like the new Toyota

[2:11:53] Camry is nice.

[2:11:54] >> Yeah.

[2:11:55] >> You know, and you're like I'm looking in

[2:11:56] their eyes. I'm like, do you not hunger?

[2:11:59] Do you not hunger? Are you not like are

[2:12:01] you not baffled by this? Are you not

[2:12:03] like And they're just like And I can

[2:12:05] never tell like like what's it feel like

[2:12:07] to not have your head on fire? What's it

[2:12:09] feel like to not be famished for

[2:12:11] experiences? What's it feel like to be

[2:12:13] satisfied? Like people who appear to

[2:12:16] just be satisfied are a marvel to me.

[2:12:19] Like I'm like, how are you just hanging

[2:12:21] out?

[2:12:23] >> Yeah. I mean, it's either a Buddha

[2:12:25] consciousness or it it's completely, you

[2:12:27] know, it's complete distraction or

[2:12:29] repression.

[2:12:30] >> And I can't know.

[2:12:31] >> Yeah.

[2:12:31] >> So, I'm going to assume Buddha

[2:12:33] consciousness because it's a more

[2:12:34] generous interpretation. But like that

[2:12:37] that's what I don't get. I get

[2:12:38] addiction. I just I don't get I'm good.

[2:12:43] You know,

[2:12:44] >> like if you're not going to the extreme,

[2:12:45] like how are you a lot, you know?

[2:12:47] >> You know, people who like live in the

[2:12:49] town they grew up in and they're like, I

[2:12:50] like it here.

[2:12:51] >> You know, and I'm like,

[2:12:53] >> did you not want to

[2:12:55] >> go see the other stuff?

[2:12:58] >> I mean, God bless.

[2:13:00] Like, I know it's incredible. Like, and

[2:13:01] and meanwhile, it's like I'll probably

[2:13:03] end up back in where I grew up and be

[2:13:05] like, after all that, right? I just

[2:13:06] circled around and came home.

[2:13:08] >> You had to do all those things to do

[2:13:10] came naturally to that with the guy who

[2:13:12] just never left

[2:13:13] >> who was like, "Oh, good to see you. I

[2:13:14] knew you'd be back."

[2:13:15] >> Yeah. Exactly.

[2:13:16] >> Who's the teacher?

[2:13:17] >> Exactly. I mean, that's why those people

[2:13:19] are mysterious to me because I'm like, I

[2:13:21] don't understand. There's a there's a

[2:13:22] scene in Ebola with this

[2:13:24] >> this Irish guy that I met there at the

[2:13:26] ashram who was deep on a hard spiritual

[2:13:28] journey and he said he went home and he

[2:13:30] was trying to tell his father. His

[2:13:32] father was like a a sheep farmer in

[2:13:35] County Cork who was like ninth

[2:13:37] generation on his land just living in

[2:13:39] this life of routine and he this kid was

[2:13:42] just a seeker and he'd spent his entire

[2:13:44] life traveling the world. He came home

[2:13:45] to get visit his dad and he was like

[2:13:47] telling him about meditation and about

[2:13:48] India and about chanting and his dad's

[2:13:52] just listening and like staring into the

[2:13:54] fire and he's like dad you got to try

[2:13:55] this meditation. And it gives you a

[2:13:56] quiet mind, Dad. Gives you a quiet mind.

[2:13:59] And his father said, "I've got a quiet

[2:14:01] mind, son."

[2:14:02] >> Yeah.

[2:14:03] >> You know, um, but my friend didn't. And

[2:14:06] when you don't, I think you have to

[2:14:07] become a seeker. I don't have one

[2:14:09] either, you know. So, I have one now

[2:14:12] more than I've ever had one, but

[2:14:16] you know, it's it's an arcade in here.

[2:14:18] >> Me, too.

[2:14:20] Welcome to the asylum.

[2:14:22] You're the best, Liz. I love you. Uh

[2:14:25] this was fantastic. I could I could just

[2:14:27] talk to you. I could do this every day

[2:14:29] with you.

[2:14:31] >> You're amazing. Um you inspired me in so

[2:14:34] many ways over many many years through

[2:14:37] >> not just your books, but your example,

[2:14:40] the way that you show up, your your

[2:14:42] courage to be as honest and as

[2:14:44] vulnerable as you are. And this latest

[2:14:48] chapter is just a whole new level of

[2:14:50] that. It's really beautifully written

[2:14:53] and I think it's gonna help a lot of

[2:14:54] people. So,

[2:14:55] >> thanks.

[2:14:56] >> Thank you for that and keep doing your

[2:14:57] thing. Yeah, I'm I'm always like I'm

[2:14:59] always here to support you. I'm such a

[2:15:01] massive fan. I just have a huge place in

[2:15:03] my heart for you and feel very connected

[2:15:05] to the mission that you're on.

[2:15:06] >> Thank you and I to yours. Let's keep

[2:15:09] going. Huh.

[2:15:09] >> Thanks.

[2:15:11] >> Final thing. Is it true that you met

[2:15:14] Adam Skolnick in Bali during that pray

[2:15:18] love situation? Is that fact or fiction?

[2:15:20] >> Not only is it true, Adam is in Eat,

[2:15:22] Pray, Love.

[2:15:22] >> He is.

[2:15:23] >> Yes.

[2:15:24] >> I did not know that.

[2:15:26] >> That I didn't know.

[2:15:27] >> He is in Eat Love.

[2:15:28] >> Like a news flash.

[2:15:29] >> Yeah, it's true.

[2:15:31] >> All right. Please just tell this

[2:15:33] postcript story quickly. My friend and

[2:15:35] yours, Adam Skolnick, I met in Ubud,

[2:15:38] Bali in 2004

[2:15:41] and we became friends and he came to my

[2:15:44] 34th birthday part, 35th birthday party

[2:15:47] which was held with at Yam the healer's

[2:15:50] house and he's got a couple lines in the

[2:15:53] book and um we've been friends ever

[2:15:55] since. I didn't know that he had lines

[2:15:57] in the book.

[2:15:57] >> And do you know for when he was he's

[2:15:59] obviously a very happily married man

[2:16:01] now, but when he was a young single man,

[2:16:03] a very good calling card to get women to

[2:16:05] like him and trust him was to say that

[2:16:07] he was friends with Liz Gilbert and that

[2:16:08] he's a character in he love.

[2:16:12] >> How many dinners did you die out on that

[2:16:14] one, buddy? How many dates?

[2:16:16] >> I played the fish.

[2:16:18] >> All right, we're next roll on. This is

[2:16:20] going to be explored.

[2:16:22] [Music]

Elizabeth Gilbert
ArtistElizabeth Gilbert

American author whose 2006 memoir Eat Pray Love — a year-long journey through Italy, India, and Indonesia in search of pleasure, devotion, and balance — became one of the most-read…

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Addiction-recoveryCodependencySex-and-love-addictionMemoir-writingSpiritual-bypassing

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According to Gilbert in the Rich Roll podcast, sex and love addiction is the compulsive use of people—particularly romantic partners—as a substance to manage internal emotional states. It involves handing over one's power and agency to another person in the name of love, then attempting to get validation or safety from them, rather than generating it internally. It often coexists with codependency and can involve manipulation and control masked as generosity or devotion.
Gilbert explained her process in the podcast: rather than writing it as a victim's story, she had to ask herself what her part was and how she co-created the dynamic. She wrote multiple drafts (fiction, poetry) before reaching the raw truth. The key is rigorous honesty to unthread not only why this happened, but why it always happens.
In the podcast, Gilbert mentioned six years of celibacy as part of her healing process, framing it as her particular path rather than a prescription for everyone. She emphasized the importance of learning to be comfortable in your own company and not using romantic connection as a way to manage internal states. The specific timeline varies by person.
Yes, according to Gilbert in the Rich Roll conversation. She described this as 'compartmentalized spirituality'—the ability to meditate, practice prayer, and hold a public identity as a spiritual person while simultaneously enabling someone else's active addiction and acting out one's own pattern of using people. Spiritual practices don't automatically provide protection from blind spots.
In the podcast, Gilbert distinguished between genuine love and addictive attachment by pointing to the question of power and agency. Genuine love respects and honors the other person's autonomy. Using people like a drug involves handing over your own power and asking another person to complete you or provide your sense of safety.
Gilbert used the term 'relapse' to describe both her partner's return to substance use and her own patterns of codependency and control. While they look different on the surface, both involve abandoning oneself for the promise of relief or completion. She told Roll that recognizing your relapse pattern is as important as recognizing substance relapse.
In the podcast, Gilbert emphasizes that spiritual practice and wisdom don't provide automatic protection against blind spots. She describes having a 'compartmentalized spirituality' where she could be genuinely spiritual while maintaining a secret life of codependency and using people. This suggests that spiritual work is ongoing and continuous facing of oneself is necessary.
Yes, according to Gilbert's experience in the Rich Roll podcast. Recovery involves entering 12-step communities, six years of celibacy and non-attachment, learning to generate your own safety and wholeness, and ongoing 'rigorous honesty' about patterns. She's been in recovery for several years, taking it 'just for today' as the program teaches.

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